Seeking

[Nina45]

Hi Louise,

My guess is that this will be infuriating. But that is a good thing - thought becoming cross.

how is it known there is "contact with the chair"?

There are sensations of contact, pressure, something I can feel ie there is not no feeling in the area around my buttocks, but there are different sensations that are hard to describe or put in to words. Hard, dense. If I move the sensations change, a bit stronger against part of my butt or legs. If I relax I stay on the chair and don't fall to the ground.

Try sitting in the chair, eyes closed.
there are sensations ... difficult to describe in words.
Sensation changes with movement.
Is there anything to say there is a "chair" there?

How is the movement known?
What moves exactly?
Is thought required?

Continue to sit in the chair.

Now imagine "you" sitting in the chair.
Does an image appear?
Is there an image of "you" and the "chair"?


Now repeat the exercise. Switch between looking at sensation and the image/thought "me sitting in the chair"

What is the difference between thoughts about "me sitting on the chair and me moving around"
And the actual experience of sensation?

In which part of the exercise does "I" exist?

Is there an "I" in sensation?
Or is there an "I" in the image/thought "me sitting in the chair"?

Best wishes

Nina
xxx

[Artyzen]

thought becoming cross.

Ha ha I like that expression!

Try sitting in the chair, eyes closed.
there are sensations ... difficult to describe in words.
Sensation changes with movement.
Is there anything to say there is a "chair" there?

Yes there are lots of sensations, hard to define any edges, just large areas of particular feelings, and other areas without much feeling.The strongest sensation is my butt, which I know is sitting on the stool, but with eyes shut there's no knowing this, even if I touch it with my hands it's just more sensation. Yes body moves and sensations change.

How is the movement known?
What moves exactly?
Is thought required?

How is movement known....moving around now in my seat, eyes shut, there's a flow of changing sensations in different places and sense of clothes against skin, air against skin - well I interpret that but without the interpretation it's just sensation. What moves....with eyes open I see the shape of my body moving. With eyes shut it's more amorphous, vague. I don't know what instructs this movement....it's not thought about step by step, the body can move quite spontaneously and thought can watch that.

Now imagine "you" sitting in the chair.
Does an image appear?
Is there an image of "you" and the "chair"?

Yes an image in my minds eye of the shape of me sitting on the stool. It's not clear and solid in the way it looks if my eyes are open, it's much more ephemeral but there is still a strong sense of an image, a body located in space, as if I had to draw it I'd know where to draw the shapes.

What is the difference between thoughts about "me sitting on the chair and me moving around"
And the actual experience of sensation?
The actual experience of sensation is very tangible and real and definable, quite specific. The thoughts don't have the same clarity. A thought image is much more blurred and intangible. Thought voice is very clear but silent, so not heard in the way voices out loud are heard.

In which part of the exercise does "I" exist?

Is there an "I" in sensation? Hmmm tricky. There is sensation and something perceiving it that could be 'I'.....but I've been through this before and can't find a separation between sensation and perception of sensation.
Or is there an "I" in the image/thought "me sitting in the chair"? Well it's a thought image and those thought images come and go. They represent something they are not 'i' in themselves. I can't find much more than this just now....

All the best.....brain hurts!

Louise xx

[Nina45]

Beautiful Looking Louise!

So, it is clear that there remains a sense of an 'I' watching. An 'I' that is awareness or 'consciousness' maybe?

Try this during the weekend ahead:

Look at sensation.
Look at thoughts about sensation.
Look for what knows there is sensation.
Look for what knows there are thoughts about sensation.

Look at sound.
Look for what knows there is sound.

Look at taste.
Look for what knows there is taste.

Look at smell.
Look for what knows there is smell.

Look at colour.
Look for what knows there is colour.


Let me know how it goes!


Lots of love

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina, I'm replying on my phone and can't do quote function so will just rewrite and reply. Thank you for this focus this weekend. Looking at sensation, sound, smell, taste etc there is the detail and neverending flow of that happening, sometimes more in awareness, sometimes eclipsed by thinking. What knows there is sensation is the awareness of it. So if I'm asleep or even distracted there's no awareness and no sensation. Though I can't separate awareness from the sensation or colour or taste there's something expansive and consistent in nature present all the time I look or focus. That's the thing that feels like 'me', but as you say it could be awareness or conxiousness. So there is colour or what I see and there may or may not be thoughts about colour, but there is a knowing that this is being seen. What knows this....it's hard to pinpoint....just because it is seen it is known. Like my mind acknowledge s that when I think about it but before I think about it it's just there. I need to go now Nina but look forward to hearing. Xx

[Nina45]

Hi Louise,

Try standing up with eyes closed. Then take attention to the sensations which are near the ground. Then answer the questions below.

Is there anything about those sensations that suggest "foot" or "leg"? Is there any shape to them?

Now notice if attention is moving around ..... Perhaps to sound or other sensations. How easy is it for the focus to be on both sensation and sound at the same time?

Is there an awareness separate from 'attention'? Is there an awareness in which " attention" is held? Or is there just experience of sensation and sound?

Is there an awareness separate from sound or sensation?

Is it possible to find the exact point where awareness begins and sensation stops?

Is it possible to find the exact point where sound ends and awareness begins?

Best wishes

Nina

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

Is there anything about those sensations that suggest "foot" or "leg"? Is there any shape to them?

Absolutely not - no defined shape. I feel various sensations and there is a picture in my mind of the shape of the parts of my body. Despite the thought that this is a clear picture I can't actually see it. And the sensations are a mass of sensations in some areas which are sensed as located relative to my head, so there is the sense they are near the floor or more in the upper part of the body. How do I know where they are located? This is hard to really see, but there is a geographic position of the various sensations and a lot of space in between sensations. To sum up - no evidence of shape but evidence of relative location.

Now notice if attention is moving around ..... Perhaps to sound or other sensations. How easy is it for the focus to be on both sensation and sound at the same time?

It does seem possible for the attention to be on both at the same time. The sounds happen anyway, I can't help but be aware of them. With sensations I need to guide the focus to be able to be aware of them. Looking at whether there can be attention on both at the same time, it does seem that this can happen, though there's also the sense of flitting very quickly between them, so I'm not totally sure. It seems possible to have a broad attention that receives more than one thing and also a focused attention....actually in my experience I don't think I ever experience a focused attention on one thing though I hear it's the aim of some concentration meditation practices.

Is there an awareness separate from 'attention'? Is there an awareness in which " attention" is held? Or is there just experience of sensation and sound?

When I try to look for the awareness of attention it's like a thought about what's happening, an overview. In the actual experience there is just sensation & sound, then thoughts as well.

Is it possible to find the exact point where awareness begins and sensation stops?

Is it possible to find the exact point where sound ends and awareness begins?

I've looked at this before and can not find any separation between awareness and what's present in awareness. You can't have awareness without there being something to be aware of, and you can't have content without awareness...well only in thought/imagination.

Best wishes
Louise

[Nina45]

Louise, that looking is fantastic!

Is it possible now to really move in on this "thing" that seems to be constantly "you"?

Awareness separate from experience can not be found.

Yet 'something' remains seems constantly " you".

What is this exactly? Is it a sensation that is familiar? Is it a thought of "Louise" or is it this "sound of my voice"?

What is it that remains?

Very best wishes

Nina

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina, so sorry for not replying sooner - just been super busy at the start of term. But I have been looking & honing in on what is Louise....I need dash now but am home this eve so will write more then....Louise

[Artyzen]

Is it possible now to really move in on this "thing" that seems to be constantly "you"?

Awareness separate from experience can not be found.

Yet 'something' remains seems constantly " you".

What is this exactly? Is it a sensation that is familiar? Is it a thought of "Louise" or is it this "sound of my voice"?

What is it that remains?

I have been frequently, intensly looking at this for the last few days. It is really really hard to see what this sense of Louise is and I still can't work it out. There is a very familiar sense that is me. So when I say sense it's something that is hard to break down or define. It is certainly a feeling, but I can't pin down particular sensations to define the feeling as those change frequently. It's more of an emotional tone or attitude, but again this is fuzzy and hard to define but has a very clear quality to it...that I just can't work out how to put in to words. There are thoughts going on constantly in 'my' silent voice, the voice in my head that seems like that could be me, but I've already found that these just come and go of their own accord. The closest I've got to seeing how Louise is presented is as a thought, or in thought. So the Louise that is so clearly, strongly present all the time I'm awake and aware is actually held together in thought. However I haven't totally seen that, more that I know it intellectually. I don't really know what else to say - whenever I become aware of this enquiry - in bed, walking down the street, meditating I'm asking the question - who is Louise, how do I know Louise exists and looking to see what comes up...very curious, but it seems very hard to define.....So I'm not sure how to take it from here now Nina, though I will keep looking? Many thanks Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

You are almost there. Almost through the gate.

I have been frequently, intensly looking at this for the last few days. It is really really hard to see what this sense of Louise is and I still can't work it out.

What is trying to 'work it out'?
Where do 'workings out' occur in actual experience?

Look for 'Louise'
Then look for what is looking for 'Louise'.
Is there also something watching what is looking for Louise?

Best of luck!

Nina

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina, in actual experience working things out happens in trying to make thinking concentrate and come to some conclusion or result. So it happens in thinking.
Looking for Louise there is a felt sense of this character. Looking at that there is a sense of physical space amd expansion around it...awareness maybe? And looking at that awareness the sense broadens further and becomes more diffused or hard to define or locate. Meditating today, watching everything going on including some uncomfortable things, there arose a sense of love holding everything. Nothing personal, not an emotion of mine but an okness about whatever was arising....images, body sensations, thoughts. So this is where I am....the feelings and senses of Louise as ever there and familiar but a fleeting few moments of not owning or being owned by it....really very refreshing and honest and lovely. I don't know if there's more to see.?...maybe yes as this was just a glimmer...I look forward to hearing. Sorry for gap days, just busy as ever. Love, Louise

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

Don't know if you caught my last post - it was a little while ago and I haven't heard from you? So just posting again. I've known all the way along, in thinking, that Louise only exists in thought despite strong feelings of her real existence, and looking at what Louise is in direct experience has been very interesting. After my last post I'm left wondering, so what am I then, if no actual Louise can be found, because there is experience, there is awareness, there are thoughts, sensations etc. I am alive and experiencing the world. There's no dramatic realisation of 'no' Louise, but I feel I'm experiencing life a little bit less attached to something. Still very much a sense of me or a familiarity but also more connected with just the experience of life as it goes on without there needing to be an owner.....xx

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

Thank you for posting again. My notifications have stopped (???) which has happened before but still catches me out!

It sounds like there has been a gentle shift.

It is all very simple. You don't exist and never have done. All there is and all there ever has been is colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation all overlaid with thought. The thought tells a story of 'me' in charge, driving and owning experience.

Reading the above, is there anything that is unclear? Any part of it that you don't agree with? That seems to bring irritation or fear?

Lovely to be in touch again.

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Thank you, lovely to hear from you too!

It is all very simple. You don't exist and never have done. All there is and all there ever has been is colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation all overlaid with thought. The thought tells a story of 'me' in charge, driving and owning experience.

I think I see this, and have certainly understood it intellectually for a long time. The only bit that I feel a reaction or resistance to is ''you don't exist'' - but I think that's a reaction to the thought created Louise/ego. I exist in that there is the world of experience and life, ie I'm not dead, but I don't exist as in a separate 'thing'. Yes it is simple and refreshing....wierd I wrote that and suddenly felt really emotional and tearful, not sure why that reaction was provoked, its unusual for me. Not sure if what else to say just now....yes something has subtely shifted.

Love, Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise,

It isn't possible to take 'you' through the gateless gate, which is an emotional experience. Have a look directly for the Louise in thought. How many 'yous' is it possible to find?

What is it that passes through the gateless gate?

Lots of love

Nina