End Seeking >>Begin Liberation

[bradd]

Hello Amrita,

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Self esteem - self conscious - self motivated - self respect - These are all kind ridiculous terms. Without a self the self would have esteem, be motivated, have respect. I speak Spanish. I was a Peace Corps (US Gov Agency) Volunteer in Guatemala. The word self in Spanish is auto as in automatic. No, there never was a self. We develop from birth with this auto/self illusion. It is almost like a spell everyone is under that makes us into zombies. If you thought that someone was under a spell you'd know that you should break the spell so that the person could leave their dream-like existence and come back to reality. You don't know you are dreaming when you are IN the dream. I have been living in the dream since infancy. Someone sleep-walking looks like they are insane. It's important to wake them up so that they don't so any harm.
Self conscious? That's a whopper! I think what people really mean is that self conscious is the opposite of good self esteem. Self anything is the opposite of what a non dualist would term conscious. Self/auto reinforces the belief of self until it becomes automatic. It's so automatic that we don't even have to think about it. It's like a car. You just turn a key or push a button an go. Automobile. The illusion of self is so complete that you don't even have to turn is on. You don't have to be conscious of the engine, wheels or even the other drivers that are coming in the opposite direction. The illusion is so complete that you "know" the other drivers won't crash into you. It's all a crazy zombies in cars movie:)
There never was a self. There was only a belief in self. Greater than Liberation from thinking is freedom from MY beliefs. I can leave the cult/religion of I-me-mine and live Life. I can slowly but surely drain the swamp of my prejudices, beliefs, and automatic thoughts. I don't have to look up or look down on any being. I don't revere Masters of the past like Jesus or Buddha. They just realized the same things as I'm beginning to now.
My swamp of self is not going to be drained in a day. Maybe a good analogy would be planting a tree seed in the swamp. I've planted the seed of the tree that will use the water in the swamp to grow. It will grow out of the dark swamp into the light. I'm a little sapling:)
Thank you again Amrita for you time and patience. It's too bad that this Liberation is so rare bur all the more reason to see its preciousness. You know this. I also think that it is too difficult to do this by just reading and watching videos. The inquiry process is good. Let's continue the questioning until you feel I'm grounded enough.

Much Appreciation
Brad

[amrita]

Hi Brad,

When you say,

There never was a self. There was only a belief in self. Greater than Liberation from thinking is freedom from MY beliefs. I can leave the cult/religion of I-me-mine and live Life. I can slowly but surely drain the swamp of my prejudices, beliefs, and automatic thoughts. I don't have to look up or look down on any being. I don't revere Masters of the past like Jesus or Buddha. They just realized the same things as I'm beginning to now.

Is this something you experience or is it another type of belief? What does this experience of non-self feel like? Is it possible to remain in the natural state of awareness and not be caught up in the contents of thoughts or beliefs? Is it possible to be open to the direct experience of what is happening in the here and now without becoming caught up in the "swamp of prejudices, beliefs and automatic thoughts"?

My swamp of self is not going to be drained in a day. Maybe a good analogy would be planting a tree seed in the swamp. I've planted the seed of the tree that will use the water in the swamp to grow. It will grow out of the dark swamp into the light. I'm a little sapling:)
Thank you again Amrita for you time and patience. It's too bad that this Liberation is so rare bur all the more reason to see its preciousness. You know this. I also think that it is too difficult to do this by just reading and watching videos. The inquiry process is good. Let's continue the questioning until you feel I'm grounded enough.

What do you mean when you say "grounded enough"? What does not being "grounded" feel like? Is there a self that needs to be grounded?

Kindest regards

Amrita X

[bradd]

s this something you experience or is it another type of belief? What does this experience of non-self feel like? Is it possible to remain in the natural state of awareness and not be caught up in the contents of thoughts or beliefs? Is it possible to be open to the direct experience of what is happening in the here and now without becoming caught up in the "swamp of prejudices, beliefs and automatic thoughts"?

Beliefs=Thoughts=self. I'm so used to being caught up in the content of thought that my conviction of no self seems like no self but is just another thought/belief. When I am truly in the natural state i believe nothing. It is a dropping of belief. Belief and thought fall off. When I feel like my conviction of no self it is just another way for me to be caught up in thought. my default is still being caught up in thought. I'm back to the same super counterintuitive mindset. I work myself up into thinking "about" the subject/content of no self instead of relaxing out of thought. I think that in the future I'll be able to work myself up into the the no self. It's an untenable situation.
Analogies and convictions just add to the story of me. Talking and writing about this subject are not direct experience. I can't convince myself that myself is not a thing. It's hard to describe. When I am direct experience....nothing. There's nothing descriptive about it. It just is. I guess the benchmark of when I am caught up in thought and when I am direct experience is that I can't describe with words or thought when I'm not actually thinking. When I am no self...when i'm in that mode...of no mode....I can say it is or that it happens but I don't have words for it. It's freedom from and not freedom to. Does that make any sense? It doesn't feel like an ability. It's not a technique. It's not concentration or meditation. It's not anything. The closest I can get to describing it is dropping or falling. Dropping belief and thought. Falling into being.

What do you mean when you say "grounded enough"? What does not being "grounded" feel like? Is there a self that needs to be grounded?

Same deal- There is no self that needs to be grounded but saying/writing/convincing myself of it just reinforces self. Doing ANYTHING reinforces my belief in self. Makes me think of why people ski, surf, mountain climb, hike in nature, drive race cars, drink/do drugs....It's an artificial way of getting to no self. These activities at least let us get a break from thinking/self. It feels like remembering the natural state.

Thanks again for keeping on track:)
Brad

[amrita]

Hi Brad,

From what you say you can experience a state of awareness where you are not identified with beliefs or with a self but you keep finding you become caught up or identified with thinking and thought-content. Have I got that right? The nature of this inquiry is based in the direct experience of what is happening now and to explore this here and now experience for any sign of a seperate self. In this experience of the here and now the natural state (as you call it) is always there. it is always possible to become aware that "I" am thinking and to step back or disidentify from the content of thought. Does that make any sense? Are you saying that you are flip-flopping between this natural state and what you call thinkingland in this inquiry?

I posted this exercise to another guidee today and thought maybe it would be interesting for you to explore as well.

Clap your hands to any beat you like.

Now close your eyes and describe what is going on in your direct experience. Pay close attention to the actual experience of the hands clapping. Start by focusing on sensations and sounds. It makes it easier if you close your eyes as it takes the sense of seeing out of the experiment and makes it easier to focus on sensations and sound.

Is there a self in any of the sensations? Is there a self that is aware of these sensations?

What about the sound of the clap? Is there a self in the sound of the clapping? Is there a self that is aware of the sound of the clapping or is there just sound? Can you separate the sound of the clap from the sensations?


Change the tempo/ beat.

Is there a self that decides the tempo/beat? Is there a self that is choosing the rhythm?

Decide to stop the clapping any time you like. Was there a self that decided to stop?

Start clapping again. Was there a self that decided to start?


You can play around with this at different times as you want and ask these questions.

Is there a self anywhere that is deciding to clap hands?

Is there a self that is aware of the sensations and sound of these hands clapping? If so, what does this sense of self feel like? How do you know it is there?

Play around with starting and stopping the clapping. Is there a self that decides to start? Is there a self that decides to stop?

Good luck :)

Amrita

[bradd]

From what you say you can experience a state of awareness where you are not identified with beliefs or with a self but you keep finding you become caught up or identified with thinking and thought-content. Have I got that right? The nature of this inquiry is based in the direct experience of what is happening now and to explore this here and now experience for any sign of a separate self. In this experience of the here and now the natural state (as you call it) is always there. it is always possible to become aware that "I" am thinking and to step back or disidentify from the content of thought. Does that make any sense? Are you saying that you are flip-flopping between this natural state and what you call thinkingland in this inquiry?

No, this doesn't make any sense. My direct experience here and now is that that there is not separate self. In this inquiry there is no sign of a separate self. I am just complicating the simple. The only state of mind is no state of mind. No state of mind means that what I think of as flip-flopping between awareness and thinking is really one and the same. Awareness is useful to see through the illusion of self.

Is there a self in any of the sensations? Is there a self that is aware of these sensations?
What about the sound of the clap? Is there a self in the sound of the clapping? Is there a self that is aware of the sound of the clapping or is there just sound? Can you separate the sound of the clap from the sensations?

There is no self in the sensations of clapping. There is no self in the awareness of any sensation. I cannot separate the sound of the clap from the sensations. The sound of the clap is the sensation.

Start clapping again. Was there a self that decided to start?

No, there is no self that decided to start. Mind "decides" to start. Further, mind decides what it will do dependent on conditioning of mind and patterns it knows.
I understand the point of this exercise is to understand that thinking, deciding, and clapping happen but are not done by the separate self. The hands clap but my hands are not clapped by me. Even decisions are made but I do not decide. They are not my decisions made by my mind.
Yesterday was Labor Day=May Day for y'all. I didn't labor much on the neti neti.
Today I'm starting a new job working with intellectually disabled persons.

[amrita]

Hi Brad,

I hope you enjoyed your first day of your new job. It sounds like it could be a lot of fun working with that specific client group.

My direct experience here and now is that that there is not separate self. In this inquiry there is no sign of a separate self.

Does this mean you have seen through a seperate self or I? Is this still on the level of a belief or can you you actually experience life without self or I? If you can experience life without a self what does it feel like? Is it different from when you started this inquiry?

I understand the point of this exercise is to understand that thinking, deciding, and clapping happen but are not done by the separate self. The hands clap but my hands are not clapped by me. Even decisions are made but I do not decide. They are not my decisions made by my mind.

So if there is no self that decides or make decisions, how do things happen in your life? Can you be responsible for anything if there is no self?

Amrita

[bradd]

Hello Amarita

Does this mean you have seen through a separate self or I? Is this still on the level of a belief or can you you actually experience life without self or I? If you can experience life without a self what does it feel like? Is it different from when you started this inquiry?

I'm not sure I feel different. It's more a difference of verb than adjective. There are things that I DON'T do. I don't feel like I need to fill all time with words. The thinking mind is the same but I don't react to it. I've taken an interest in feeling pain like when I bump into something. The "pain" is experienced differently in that it is felt more as sensation. Mostly when I'm outside, the trees, clouds, cars, houses, look a little crisper. Sort of outlined more and not fuzzy, blurry. I notice more sounds and remember that they are in the field with thoughts. I am calmer, more peaceful - It's like I'm anticipating the next flare up of emotion. Then it doesn't happen. Even when it does I see the emotion for what it is - mind - and not the illusion that it is me in the emotion. I have certain words that pop in. Wholesome. Reality. Love. Transition. Always. First, I saw that the I-ME-MINE was thought. Closer to the bullseye was that beliefs cause the illusion of separate self. Now I'm seeing that all that went into formation of self: conditioning, fear, attachment, craving, genes (and probably epigenetics) I was never really in control of. It felt like I was making choices and being independent. No way. I never was.

So if there is no self that decides or make decisions, how do things happen in your life? Can you be responsible for anything if there is no self?

Up to this point in my life I've been seemingly struggling and seeking. "If I do A, B, and C really well, then I will get rewarded with X...someday. Without a separate self to do all the seeking and struggling I can just let be what is. Whatever falls in my lap...groovy:) This I understand from my direct experience of sensation and perception. I can't choose thoughts so how in the world do I think I can control my mind enough to think I'm independently making decisions. Things just happen, the way that they always have whether my separate self thought it or not. If my realization that the separate self is thought and belief then Liberation is knowing that the separate self is and cannot be in control of anything. It's like saying the campfire is in control of making the water flow upstream. That makes no sense because mind makes no sense. Liberation is allowing Life to Love. Let it be. There is no self and certainly that which doesn't even exist cannot be responsible. If there is anything for which there is a response it is just to begin with present awareness which expand to nothing, empty.

I'm Awake Amrita

[amrita]

Hi Brad,

When you say,

I'm not sure I feel different. It's more a difference of verb than adjective.

Can you say a litte bit more about this please? I am not fully sure I understand what you are saying.

Here is another exercise for you to try.

If you stand still and close your eyes, can you be aware of the sensations in your feet? Do this for a few minutes if you can and ask yourself the following questions.

Are the sensations different from thoughts about the sensations?

Is it possible to be aware of the sensations without thoughts?

If there are thoughts, is it possible to be aware of the gaps between thoughts?

Where, if anywhere, is the sense of seperate self in the gaps between thoughts?

Warm wishes

Amrita x

[bradd]

Hello Amrita,
I didn't get an email yesterday saying that you had responded. You've been so good about responding that I finally looked here and saw that you had. Thanks.

Amrita:If you can experience life without a self what does it feel like? Is it different from when you started this inquiry?
Brad: I'm not sure I feel different. It's more a difference of verb than adjective.
Amrita: Can you say a little bit more about this please? I am not fully sure I understand what you are saying.

When you asked what it feels like I expressed how I'm reacting (or not reacting) differently. It's more a difference in action (verb) than feeling (adjective).

Are the sensations different from thoughts about the sensations?
Is it possible to be aware of the sensations without thoughts?
If there are thoughts, is it possible to be aware of the gaps between thoughts?
Where, if anywhere, is the sense of separate self in the gaps between thoughts?

Sensations are not different from thoughts about the sensations. They are the same thing. The sensation comes, I am aware, and then it passes. Thoughts come, I am aware, and then they pass. Between the sensation and thought I could simply be aware. Aware of nothing. I'm not sure if that counts as a gap. Awareness being present allows the sense of separate self to subside. More awareness>>>less thinking. Thinking is self. Therefore, the gap is where there is no self.

[amrita]

HI Brad,

This sounds vey good,

Thoughts come, I am aware, and then they pass. Between the sensation and thought I could simply be aware. Aware of nothing. I'm not sure if that counts as a gap. Awareness being present allows the sense of separate self to subside. More awareness>>>less thinking. Thinking is self. Therefore, the gap is where there is no self.

Is there an I that can be aware or is there just awareness?

Is there a self that exists outside of your direct experience of whatever is arising in awareness?

Amrita

[bradd]

Hello Amrita

Is there an I that can be aware or is there just awareness?
Is there a self that exists outside of your direct experience of whatever is arising in awareness?

It really does come down to simple questions like this. Direct experience is awareness, at least in the way that we have defined it. Whatever is arising is in direct experience (awareness). All there is is direct experience=awareness.

I've written these two questions on a card that I've put in my pocket. I don't like having things in my pocket. This will remind me to contemplate the two questions. That is enough. This inquiry process is difficult but simple. I need to keep it simple.

Thank you,
Brad

[bradd]

Hello Amrita
After contemplating these questions: I believe that I am seeing direct experience as a means to no self. Therefore they are two things. In the same way that I realized thinking AS self I clearly understand that direct experience IS no self. In other words, the experience of no self is direct experience. I know this to be true. I believe it to be true, but this in itself is not direct experience. I need to get over this hump. I'm trying to be as simple as possible to truly understand this concept. At some point I had to understand the concept of chair before I could have the direct experience of sitting, right? Or did I never have to understand the concept and go directly to experience? Am I still complicating something so simple and is this the reason that I don't get it? Amrita, how do you directly experience life?

Could you suggest another exercise to point to what you think might be my stumbling block? or should I go back to the exercise with the orange. Give me a juicy exercise that might help me, please.

Thank you for your time and patience
Brad

[amrita]

Hi Brad,

The aim of this inquiry is to "see' there is no self at the centre of experience that is controlling, interpreting or influencing life. There is simply experience (sensations, thoughts, images, sounds etc). There is no self necessary to hold it all together. It/life/the unverse just simply is...

After contemplating these questions: I believe that I am seeing direct experience as a means to no self. Therefore they are two things. In the same way that I realized thinking AS self I clearly understand that direct experience IS no self. In other words, the experience of no self is direct experience. I know this to be true. I believe it to be true, but this in itself is not direct experience.

Here's another exercise,

Close your eyes and pay attention to the direct nature of your experience, (sensations, thoughts, sounds, ect) and ask yourself these questions,

Is there a self that is having this experience? If so, where does this sense of self manifest or show itself?

Is there a self that can control or change whatever is happening in experience? Isn't it the case that life/experience is just happening?

Try this exercise again with your eyes open,

Is there a self that is seeing whatever you are looking at?

Is there a self that chooses to look at a specific object or not?

Where else can "you" exist apart from the experience of whatever is going on in the Here and Now?

Good luck

Amrita

[amrita]

Hi Brad,

I havent heard from you for a few days so I hope all is well. How are things?

Amrita x

[bradd]

Hello my friend
I'm doing well. I went to my normal Friday night meditation sangha last night. Guess what the topic of discussion was? Yes, you got it, NO SELF. The person leading the session was trying to present the topic as well as he could. I felt sorry for him and sorry for the group that probably did not leave with a better understanding than when they walk in. I made some comments hoping to point in the right direction if anyone was ready to approach the gate but I don't think it did any good. i think about all the years in seeking that it took me to get to now. It doesn't have to be an impossible task to get a glimpse of no self. It shouldn't take years of meditation or other forms of seeking. I feel like it helps more to FAIL at these forms of seeking to get your "eyes on the prize." Seeing no self is SO simple. It feels great to see...get to the other side of no self. It also feels lonely. I know most of the people on earth do not recognize the truth of no self.
I've spent the last few days kind of flicking the switch between thinking and no self. When I catch myself in a mood or with the voices/words in my mind I stop and listen to them. At the same time I recognize that they (words/thought/emotion) are my conception of self and then ....switch...to no self. I say ...just driving...just brushing...just washing dishes...just looking. Even though it still uses some words I am increasingly able to maintain no self.
I've been thinking of the lonely thing lately. Emotion pops up and I see it as emotion. I see that anger and lonely are really similar. Both are ways that my self reinforces the idea of self. Doing this allows the emotion to dissipate. Sensation/emotion/thinking are real but they are not I-me-mine. The quicker that this is recognized the quicker they lose strength and are gone. They don't control or obsess. This is Liberation. This is Life and Living.
Now that I recognize the truth of no self I see that it has always been the case. When I was 5, 15, and 25 years old I was not I. I recognize I-me-mine as a means for humans to survive. Ants have big mandibles. Eagles have powerful eyes. Monkeys hang by their tails. Giraffes have long necks. People have big brains with lots of memory. Having this idea of I-me-mine in his head made him selfish so he could have the will to survive. I'm not worried about survival and the sense of I only serves to make me suffer. Good riddance to I-me-mine.
Recognition of no self is not something that is here today and gone tomorrow. Having seen the truth I can't unsee it. I hope I can increase the frequency of switching between self and no self. It's on my mind all the time now. It may be that it's on my mind all the time because it is a fresh idea. I don't think so. I see the futility of I-me-mine thinking. Meditaion often seemed like a waste a waste of time. This is real meditation...switching to no self. I can do it anywhere and anytime. it requires no effort. It is super simple.

Much apprectiation
Brad