Almost there - intellectually and conceptually, missing the direct understanding

[toadisms]

Apologies for delay in getting back to you Bodhi, work has been quite consuming lately.

Lie down somewhere quiet, closing the eyes and relaxing into the sense of feeling once more. Make yourself comfortable and start to feel the sensations of your body again.

Can you tell, from the sensations, the gender of the body? The dimensions and weight of the body?
Can you find the location in space and time of the body? Can you tell what is inside the body and outside?

Thank you for this exercise. In short when lying down, eyes closed and fully relaxed, can't tell any of these criteria from the sensations of the body. I also notice when sitting at my desk writing this with my eyes open the experience is different, from sight I gain a sense of scale between my self and other objects in view for example.

So when in meditation or a relaxed state the sensation/s of the body are merging into one. With eyes open the sense of awareness is affected by information gained from seeing and of course labelling happens which is a standard automatic response of the mind. and is near impossible to turn off as it's deeply ingrained into the mind.

Over the last week of two I have been exploring the area of fear, trying to understand it more clearly and profoundly. As a small child I had a strong vivid imagination and was excited and fascinated by ghost stories and the supernatural. mixed in with this was a deep fear. This fear has stayed within my mind, so I have been sitting in my dark basement late at night (an area I really don't want to be in as it firmly presses my fear button) in an effort to come to terms with the sensations and drivers of this experience. It has been uncomfortable initially, but rewarding as I have just sat with the feeling and in recognition of it. I have spoken to my fear and asked it what it is protecting - no answer as yet.

The other area that needs digging up is free will. There is want to believe that there is no control in life as ultimately it is hugely comforting and there is an appreciation that this is like lifting a huge dead weight off my shoulders. However the mind struggles with questions such as 'but what about taking responsibility for ones actions?' and 'if we all believed that then people would do whatever they pleased, stuff would not get done'. As I sit here writing this my mind is already percolating the list of tasks that must be completed today before close of business. What would happen if I resisted and calmly just accepted that today I will just 'be' - would the business premises rent still get paid? I would be hugely grateful if you could help with my understanding of free will, I know life is unfolding and that the minds thoughts pass like clouds with no end destination. How does one put free will in context with living day to day?

With many thanks and best wishes.

[b0dhi]

Hi Piers

No worries in regards to the delay, you need to progress at a pace comfortable for you. :)

labelling happens which is a standard automatic response of the mind. and is near impossible to turn off as it's deeply ingrained into the mind.

When doing these exercises, as the "merging" happens, are you able to discern that "foot", "abdomen", "head", "body" etc are all labels being applied. In sensing for these things, there is only sensation. The labelling happens after.

Now try this with other senses:

In hearing is there a hear-er and a hear-d? Or is there only hearing?
In tasting is there a tast-er and a tast-ed? Or is there only tasting?
In smelling is there a smell-er and a smel-t? Or is there only smelling?

In the same way, in see-ing is there a see-er and a see-n? Or is there only see-ing? (I mean the see-ing as the sense of sight here)

In regards to fear, free-will and other discussions, let's put them on a back burner for now and see what resolves as this inquiry progresses for you. I'm happy to work on these with you, within the scope of this inquiry, as we move forward.

My warmest regards

[toadisms]

Hi Bodhi,

In hearing is there a hear-er and a hear-d? Or is there only hearing?
In tasting is there a tast-er and a tast-ed? Or is there only tasting?
In smelling is there a smell-er and a smel-t? Or is there only smelling?

In the same way, in see-ing is there a see-er and a see-n? Or is there only see-ing? (I mean the see-ing as the sense of sight here)

Okay, absolutely there is only hearing, tasting, smelling, seeing - as there is only ever the now, the present moment and there is no doer/narrator/perceiver/agent. However, 'heard' or tasted' point to a sensation via the senses that is recalled via the mind/memory - so the question is, is 'remembering' a direct experience and so valid? But of course as a thought about a past sensation or event then tasted/heard/saw in another sense it is not valid - it is a thought/description of the experienced sensation/past event.

I notice that as direct experience only sensations and events in the present moment are valid.

Is the purpose of this exercise to dislocate from thoughts, to see them as fiction, allow them to enter and exit the mind freely, but not to place importance on them? 'Thinking' is of course a valid experience. I have noticed that there is a reliance on thinking and seeing as the two central channels of experience in day to day reality. If sound is allowed to come to the fore it changes balance in the field of experience, with more focus on hearing there is a new spectrum of sensations that opens up.

With my thanks.

[b0dhi]

Hi Piers

Well done with the exercises - spot on :)

'Thinking' is of course a valid experience. I have noticed that there is a reliance on thinking and seeing as the two central channels of experience in day to day reality. If sound is allowed to come to the fore it changes balance in the field of experience, with more focus on hearing there is a new spectrum of sensations that opens up.

Thinking and seeing are generally what create reality as "in here" and "out there"

When you are sensing with the ears, nose, tongue and body, you soon find that there is no separation between what you think of as inside the body and outside. There is just the experience.

But when you look at the World, then we see that we are located somewhere and that it appears that the world is "out there" and you are "in here". And when thoughts arise about the world that is out there and the me that is in here...well, there's your personal self right there :)

Let me know how the above sits with you.

is 'remembering' a direct experience and so valid?

How is remembering different from thinking? Do memories present themselves in a way different to thought? What is the exact difference between a memory and a present thought? As you have already stated

it is a thought/description of the experienced sensation/past event.

Is the purpose of this exercise to dislocate from thoughts, to see them as fiction, allow them to enter and exit the mind freely, but not to place importance on them?

Yes quite right, if that is what you found happened :)

[toadisms]

Hi Bodhi,

I've been contemplating, particularly experience unfolding, how it feels, that it is the only experience.

Hi Piers

Well done with the exercises - spot on :)

But when you look at the World, then we see that we are located somewhere and that it appears that the world is "out there" and you are "in here". And when thoughts arise about the world that is out there and the me that is in here...well, there's your personal self right there :)

Yes, there is only experience, there is no 'out there' or 'in here'.

So question: direct experience is happening now, there is only one, yet it is happening simultaneously everywhere, in India and in Iceland, but the direct experience is happening here now only in London? ...I am getting caught up in location but it's comprehending the nature of experience as a whole. The experience is happening only on London here now, that is clear.

There is no 'i' no experiencer, 'I' has no control, there is no control of anything, there is only to be happy with what is and what is coming.

Yes quite right, if that is what you found happened :)

Yes correct. Thoughts are not real. Thinking is real yet there is no control over thoughts. At work I have a thought to email my accountant, yet there is no 'me' so it just happens. This takes a burden off the shoulders, it's liberating. Yet choices are made, and responsibility comes with that. Everything is what it is no more or less. Neither good nor bad. Yet awareness makes us cognisant and compassionate - to not treat other beings badly.

[b0dhi]

Hi Piers

Sorry for the delay getting back to you.

So question: direct experience is happening now, there is only one, yet it is happening simultaneously everywhere, in India and in Iceland, but the direct experience is happening here now only in London? ...I am getting caught up in location but it's comprehending the nature of experience as a whole. The experience is happening only on London here now, that is clear.

There is no 'i' no experiencer, 'I' has no control, there is no control of anything, there is only to be happy with what is and what is coming.

When you look at pure experience, or direct experience - what is location? Can you find location - for instance could you find where the body was located when you experienced the sensations.

The "you", "me", "here", "there" - can you find it through experience? Or is this just mental separation?

Thinking is real yet there is no control over thoughts.

Great insight! So if these were "your" thoughts then there would be a "you" - right? Can you find the source of thought? Can you have only happy thoughts? Can you program to have particular thoughts before you have had them?

Then what is thinking the thoughts - is is a you? Or is a "you" what is created by thoughts. And note that you have no control over the creation of "you" if this is the case.

Wonderful - keep going :) You're doing famously!

[toadisms]

Hi Bodhi,

Location cannot be found in direct experience. Of course it's possible to pick up a smart phone and use it to locate your position according to the accepted construct of a global map/gps system - there is the experience of doing that and the mind assimilates the information from the process. With mediation there is no sense of here, there, or anywhere. Sight helps to link familiar objects and the mind labels them - this creates a sense of location. The mind recognises what it has seen before. My point earlier was more that if places ar not actually experienced directly then they don't exist - ie India doesn't exist. It's an important distinction and one that I am struggling with.

Sorry I'm using an iPad and can't use the quote function but essentially no I can't find the source of thought, and yes agreed 'you' is created by thoughts, it has to be because if they were mine surely I could control them somehow.

'No control over the creation of me' - it feels like there is control, there is a feeling of hunger, a thought pops in to go to the fridge, eating happens, taste hapoens, feeling better hapoens, the experience feels so familiar and one that is being lead by me.

So what is making the mind/body check emails every morning? What is making calls to clients happen? - there is no me doing it, but it is happening. So things just happen, ok. Something is in control?? ... Or nothing is. Is there any element of free choice?

Sorry to ask questions Bodhi but there is a wall appearing in the mind, I've read the Liberation Unleashed book, I've read Eckhart Tolle, watched many videos and read many articles. The principles are clear, accept every moment like you chose it yourself. All of it makes sense on one level, yet there is no feeling of breakthrough.
Much appreciated.
Piers

[b0dhi]

Hey Piers

Location cannot be found in direct experience.

With mediation there is no sense of here, there, or anywhere.

Good going!

So what is making the mind/body check emails every morning? What is making calls to clients happen? - there is no me doing it, but it is happening. So things just happen, ok. Something is in control?? ... Or nothing is. Is there any element of free choice?

Whatever was doing it before is still doing it, right? The point is that we initially thought there was a "me" a "self" in there that was in charge. Looking closer, this is not the case. The questions of free choice, control etc are more mind fluff. Can you find what is behind free will or control? Is it "you"? Or is it more like something 'bigger' or 'more primary' that is in control?

All of it makes sense on one level, yet there is no feeling of breakthrough.

Before passing the gate we need to drop everything we know and have thought about ourselves. You are free to pick this up after but the first process is destruction of the known "me". Then there is the opening of the eyes still further - so if there is no "me", there is still something here. What is it? How does it present itself?

[toadisms]

Hi Bodhi, back on it!

To answer your last question there is a 'sense' of self, that manifests in a number of ways. Firstly there is sincere interaction with other beings on a daily basis which includes using language inclusive of the word 'I' and 'me' and 'you' etc which gives an illusion of self. Language is a key culprit in this. there is the narrator egoic mind voice in the head labelling and monkey chatter, this too gives a 'sense' of self. All thoughts do the same, through the conditions mind abd nature of the ego thinking it is in control and has an identity. But they provide a sense, but there is actually no self as such. That simple. Of course the 'sense' can feel like a very real sensation, it feels so credible, but it's an illusion. When talking to other beings the talking just happens automatically, there is a noticing that is happening at the same time now however.

One practice that helps to focus and subdue the mind monkey chatter is being in the present moment. Years of habitual conditioning of thinking of the past and the future still hapoen but less - presumably this falls away more with time.

Best
Piers

[b0dhi]

Hi Piers, good to hear from you again :)

One practice that helps to focus and subdue the mind monkey chatter is being in the present moment. Years of habitual conditioning of thinking of the past and the future still hapoen but less - presumably this falls away more with time.

Does the monkey mind create a real self?

If not, then why does it matter if the monkey is chattering or not? Do you think that the monkey will stop?

Being in the "present moment" is a great ideal in a way, however it can be an obstacle too.

Is there anything that exists outside of the present moment?

Happy hunting :)

[toadisms]

A long time in replying, my response to your question is that on one level there is nothing outside of the present moment. On another level there is the sensations of the present moment - through the sensory field of perception, touch, sight, smell, taste, sound, thought etc. So the present moment consists of these sensations, ultimately feeling. The sensations of the body are core, they represent 'being' in its purest form. Back to the present moment - it contains all experience as we know it. Perhaps the obstacle aspect may be its labelling in reference to time, ie: not the past or the future but the present. Actually it is purely existence or being. Or 'is-ness'.

Thank you

[b0dhi]

Hey Piers

Thanks for the response.

Have a look for "time". See if you can find it.

[toadisms]

In direct experience in mediation, time is non existent Bodhi.

We think of the past and invest thoughts and emotions in them, as well as the future. But they are not real. Thoughts appear about the past, but then it goes, where does it go?

Conciousness is dimensionless. It is always present. It is real. The now is eternally present, it is the only now there is.. Time is a construct of mind, it is a belief.

Thank you

[b0dhi]

Hi Piers

Sorry for getting back to you so late.

Your answers are fabulous - just right on the money :)

So is time just a construct? A concept?

And what about you? Can you appear in time? If so would you not only be a construct/concept?

Are you just a belief? Are you just an expectation that there should be a you there to experience the "not you"?

[toadisms]

Bodhi,

I cannot appear in time. There is only now. Infinite awareness. If I really look, there is no actual experience of time at all. The now has nothing to do with time. It is pure eternal awareness. It doesn't come from somewhere. This now is awareness or knowing and it is made of conciousness, there are no objective qualities to it, it is what we know ourselves to be - pure being. The story of Piers, the separate self has an egoic timeline which is pure concept/construct. A justification for the egoic separate mind which constantly derives meaning from concepts and illusions which support its image of itself. These are constantly changing. They manifest as thoughts of the past in the egoic mind.

Your last sentence strikes me to the core 'there should be a you there to experience the not you' - in effect it is knowing turning back and looking at itself, the precondition of having a mind necessitates an ego but awareness itself ignites a spark a small shift which begins the inquiry process. Knowing itself recognises it's being and does not identify with the ego self. There has to be a separate 'I' for this to be experienced.

Thank you