Requesting guidance

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JonathanR
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby JonathanR » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:10 am

Hi M,
Yes I will try keep it simple, and please keep hauling me back to basics. Simple is not really my default setting so I will keep trying to get back to simple.
Don't worry, I will.
experience was letting go of thoughts, pre thoughts, intentions. Not being captured by them. It is as if I had to let the thoughts completely go (even letting go intentions to not have thoughts) to get to the point of being disinvested of them
Yes. It's great that this happened though.
To experience no 'I' while still able to have a thought but not being the thought. Hmmm 'the illusion that I must let go', does seem to fit in with that.
Yes. Except, that sounds rather like an 'I' 'experiencing no self'.

But language is often inadequate. Is it true that someone, 'a person' 'has' the experience' of no self?

Or is it more that having exhausted all possibilities and hiding places it becomes clear that the self had never really 'existed'?

And likewise thoughts. They appear but do you 'have' them? Are they 'yours'?


Love

Jon

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Treelife
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Treelife » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:04 pm

Hi Jon,
How you doing?
Yes. Except, that sounds rather like an 'I' 'experiencing no self'....Is it true that someone, 'a person' 'has' the experience' of no self?
Or is it more that having exhausted all possibilities and hiding places it becomes clear that the self had never really 'existed'?
I don't really know how to define the experience. At the time if felt like all hiding places were exhausted so a glimpse of no self became apparent. But I don't assume, it may have been possible that the self convinced the self that there was no self just to make sense out of this. I cannot be sure, however it was very useful for me to have the experience and it certainly helps sustain me.

...thoughts. They appear but do you 'have' them? Are they 'yours'?
I am back to the regular exercise yesterday and today - not trying to force or push it, just noticing.
I notice that the sense of self seems to be IN the thoughts - even the most subtle thoughts (what I call pre-thoughts, but still thought like). The 'narrator' who comments on things, or the 'boss' who dictates what is to happen, or the experience of having arguments in my head. The thoughts can sometimes parachute into my mind or other times come up in a slow subtle way (as if meaning arises out of the sensations in my body, or other ways). This though 'voice' or 'knowing' seems to harbor the sense (or illusion) of self. Thoughts do their own thing, I don't choose them, however it is possible to work on stopping or reducing or diverting thoughts with intention (like in meditation) however intentions are tricky because the intention itself can grow legs and run up the walls turning into a thought itself.
I also at times get a sense of self in my solar plexus, and/or in my eyes (more like just behind my eyes). The sense of self from these bodily sensations are more inclined when I'm in a less relaxed state of being. When my mind or body sensations seem busy. It is like there is a belief that there is a self in there. However if I go and investigate to see if it is there, then there is nothing.

On another level, in a general way of thinking I now hold a conviction that there is no self. I generally belief that there is no self. Of course that belief has not permeated into me, it exists on a reflective cognitive level. Not on a deep cellular level, but it is a belief that I don't find myself arguing against and makes sense to me - this is helpful with intentions and motivation. I also a feel reduced anxiety and frightfulness about its consequences for when/if I make it through the gateless gate.

Look forward to next installment,
M

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JonathanR
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby JonathanR » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:45 am

Hi M,

I'm fine thanks. Hope the camping was fun?

Thanks for your post. The growing conviction you mention is the right direction. Part of this process is about no longer doubting that there is no self.
. I also a feel reduced anxiety and frightfulness about its consequences for when/if I make it through the gateless gate.
This is the first time you mentioned anxiety about this. Frightfulness is a strongish word. Please let me know a bit more about this, how strong the feeling is? What sort of anxious or frightful thoughts do you have?


Love

Jon

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Treelife
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Treelife » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:30 pm

Hi Jon,

Fear about no longer having a self:
I accept there is an illusion that there is someone running the show, a show called Mic, that 'I' make choices. Although it is an illusion, there is a strong belief that I/self/Mic is in control. To give up that decision maker, give up the 'I' who is responsible and in control has filled me with fear about who is going to manage the show, to control, to take responsible. Especially when I hear accounts from people who have gone through the gateless gate that it can be quite challenging - this is most vividly articulated my Jed McKenna (recommended reading) - although most accounts indicate that it all works out in the end.
The fear that is most personal to me is in relation to my role as a father and as a husband and as a senior clinician in the mental health services. In all these area I have a lot of responsibility and demands. However it my commitment to me children that really catches me. I have a fear (I think irrational fear) that wonders if I will be able to function without an I, without an invested identity. On it's most extreme and most irrational level I have a fear about how I would make ethical decisions without such a 'self' as a moral compass.
This fear is reducing, but it has not yet disappeared.

Peace and love Jon,
M

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JonathanR
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby JonathanR » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:10 pm

Hi M,

I am very moved, reading what you have written. Thank uou for being do open. I faced, still face, most of what you mention. And it would be dishonest for me to say that there will not be any changes at all. Just what and by how much is impossible to predict.
However it my commitment to me children that really catches me. I have a fear (I think irrational fear) that wonders if I will be able to function without an I, without an invested identity. On it's most extreme and most irrational level I have a fear about how I would make ethical decisions without such a 'self' as a moral compass.
I completely understand these sentiments and can only say that as a reasonably responsible working father and husband there has been no impulse whatsoever to let anyone down or start acting immorally. Probably the reverse. And I have become hugely more positive in outlook.

It was and is seen that decisions have always happened with or without the idea that an 'I' 'makes them'.

Hope this may help?

Love

Jon

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Treelife
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Treelife » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:14 pm

Hi Jon,
Thanks for that.
I faced, still face, most of what you mention. And it would be dishonest for me to say that there will not be any changes at all. Just what and by how much is impossible to predict.
This does intimidate me as I understand that something changes on the other side of the gate, that it may be difficult and that no one can tell me how much or how. I do get a sense of this being about identity and priorities and beliefs and I understand that it burns off after a period of time - but don't know how much time. Although it is somewhat scary it is not really the deal breaker. The piece about being able to function (family and work) is what catches me - I cannot afford to not be able to function. Jed McKenna describes how the ego gets you to the gate, but the ego cannot itself go through the gate; I am open to disruption and difficulty and even emotional pain yet I beliefe I have my non-negotiable - functioning with my family and work, both of which are challenging enough in the modern world.
I completely understand these sentiments and can only say that as a reasonably responsible working father and husband there has been no impulse whatsoever to let anyone down or start acting immorally. Probably the reverse. And I have become hugely more positive in outlook. It was and is seen that decisions have always happened with or without the idea that an 'I' 'makes them'.
That is some reassurance - the take home message is that whatever happens your experience is that functioning still happens. I'll add that to the mix and see how it all settles. Please feel free to write more on this if you have any additional insights you think may be helpful to share.

Regarding the exercise I got an insight today about how I get caught in by the experiences I have. How in the reflective space (mostly through meditation) I can see how either with thoughts or with bodily sensations (that have a subtle 'knowing' or believing or intention) they seem to hook me in. As if there is a conversation that ‘I’ become part of, an internal relationship ‘I’ have a role in. I could today see a duality where I could not see any before. A reaction to the experience, a reaction so subtle it is almost inside the action itself. It is a struggle to see the space between the action (experience) and the reaction, but I do have a strong sense there is a space between them.
Trying to open the space to see the difference between the experience and the thought/intention/knowing is an experience itself. Today’s insight suggests that the 'I'/'Self' is within that reaction and that reaction is not just welded to the experience, but it is almost moulded into the experience.
On the same issue but on a slightly different angle I get this feeling or belief that the 'I illusion'' is resistant to being separated from the experience - although there is no I to hold such intentions........ Anyway that is a different paragraph and I don't want to confuse this entry so maybe for another day.

Thanks for everything and looking forward to the next round,
M

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JonathanR
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby JonathanR » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:05 pm

Hi M,

Thanks very much for your post. I apologise but for various reasons I have come to reply very late today and I'm actually too tired to do it properly, so I will write in the morning.

love

Jon

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Treelife
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Treelife » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:56 pm

No Problem Jon,
I'll add to todays earlier post.
Earlier I talked about the experience and the reaction. That is getting clearer. The reaction is more in the thought end of things - even if it is without words or even clear articulable thoughts. To describe it I used words like a 'knowing', or 'intention', or 'belief' that may seem to exist in the sensation. I now want to use the word judgement. The 'reaction' that is so subtly welded/molded into the experience is characterized by a judgement, (or it could be understood as an agenda or intention). Either way it seems to be not the actual experience but an impression of the experience, and one that is distorted at that. The actual experience is being mediated through this impression - thus blocking the true direct experience. The experience of the illusion of I seems to be in the judgement or the thought impression of the actual lived experience.
Side stepping the judgement is possible but difficult. When I did get some moments of getting past it the body sensation I was experiencing was very strong. In those moments I experienced a sense of no agenda or no concerns or evaluation about the experience or sensations. What was to happen next was of no relevance, what was happening was what was happening.
I don't want to overstate this, yet for me if seems like an important insight. To identify the space between experience/sensation and judgement/thinking seems to diminish the experience of the self illusion.
I too am tired now,
Talk tomorrow,
Mic

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JonathanR
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby JonathanR » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:17 am

Hi Mic
Side stepping the judgement is possible but difficult. When I did get some moments of getting past it the body sensation I was experiencing was very strong. In those moments I experienced a sense of no agenda or no concerns or evaluation about the experience or sensations. What was to happen next was of no relevance, what was happening was what was happening.
I don't want to overstate this, yet for me if seems like an important insight. To identify the space between experience/sensation and judgement/thinking seems to diminish the experience of the self illusion.
Yes. Seeing this is important and at core very simple.

'What was happening was what was happening'. Notice this more. You won't have to 'try' much and it's a mistake to imagine it needs much pondering.

You analyze all this stuff very well. Perhaps it feels as though you must do this analyzing?

What if the analyzing were not only unnecessary but actually in the way?

Would it feel good to relax on the 'working it out' front?


love

Jon

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Treelife
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Treelife » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:27 pm

Hi Jon

You analyze all this stuff very well. Perhaps it feels as though you must do this analyzing?
I don't analyse based on any belief or internalised expectation. This is me shares ng the thoughts and observations I have on relation to the experience s and exercises. I am not 'trying' to work it out. I'm not trying anything I'm just doing what I always do. However I could imagine it may be an occupational habit.
What if the analyzing were not only unnecessary but actually in the way?
I would need to hear exactly what to not do, what thoughts to cut out. I don't see it.
Would it feel good to relax on the 'working it out' front?

I cannot at this point visualise what that would be different. What that process would be in the exercises.
Of course I will try set some sort of intention in keeping with you suggestion and see where it lands.
In the mean time I'll try bring less to the UL emails.

Talk soon Jon
M

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Treelife
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Treelife » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:39 pm

Hi again Jon.
I am making another entry since last night.
I am trying to follow the guidance. You have indicated from the messages that I over analysis, that I am too literal and I do know that I tend to be busy in my head. I appreciate your frustration at having to keep pull me back and I am frustrated at not getting it.
Earlier I talked about the experience and the reaction. That is getting clearer. The reaction is more in the thought end of things - even if it is without words or even clear articulable thoughts. To describe it I used words like a 'knowing', or 'intention', or 'belief' that may seem to exist in the sensation. I now want to use the word judgement. The 'reaction' that is so subtly welded/molded into the experience is characterized by a judgement, (or it could be understood as an agenda or intention). Either way it seems to be not the actual experience but an impression of the experience, and one that is distorted at that. The actual experience is being mediated through this impression - thus blocking the true direct experience. The experience of the illusion of I seems to be in the judgement or the thought impression of the actual lived experience
That is admittedly quite analytical by any standard. The problem is that I don't know how else to respond. I share my thoughts and describe the sensation. I will try not think about the exercises, but I'm not sure I have that much control over my thought impressions. I will try remind myself to disregard the thoughts and certainly my conclusions but I am not sure what I'll have to write about then. I can try write on sensation s but think I tried that earlier and it was more of the same. I will try think and write in generalities but not sure how that will play out.

Notwithstanding all this I do see myself moving to towards the gate. 'I' is still very much there, but not with the same level of certainty. Thoughts have less potency and can be categorized as just thoughts rather than truths.
I am open to hearing more description on what to do instead of 'analysis' or 'literal'?

Thanking you
Mike

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JonathanR
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby JonathanR » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:18 pm

Hi Mike,

You have a great and very able mind. But there needs to be focus on this:
Side stepping the judgement is possible but difficult. When I did get some moments of getting past it the body sensation I was experiencing was very strong. In those moments I experienced a sense of no agenda or no concerns or evaluation about the experience or sensations. What was to happen next was of no relevance, what was happening was what was happening.
This is great work and where the focus should be at the moment. See if you can find opportunities to notice these sorts of sensations. The 'no agenda and no concern for evaluation about the experience' is brilliant. I'm reminded very much of something Alan Watts once said when he recommended that people should 'go out of their mind at least once a day, becasue when you go out of your mind you come to your senses'.

Any of the five senses will do, or a combination of them. Just notice sensations as they appear.


love Jon

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Treelife
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Treelife » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:37 pm

Thanks again Jon
That direction was very helpful
Side stepping the judgement is possible but difficult. When I did get some moments of getting past it the body sensation I was experiencing was very strong. In those moments I experienced a sense of no agenda or no concerns or evaluation about the experience or sensations. What was to happen next was of no relevance, what was happening was what was happening.
This is great work and where the focus should be at the moment. See if you can find opportunities to notice these sorts of sensations
Seems the trick for me is side stepping the subtle judgements and thoughts. The self appears to emerge in thoughts/beliefs. But this is not easy. The more I can embrace the sensations independent of the thoughts, the smaller the sense of self. It is easier in focused meditation, but today getting somewhat smother outside of meditation.

With love
M

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JonathanR
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby JonathanR » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:28 pm

Hi M,

Great!
Seems the trick for me is side stepping the subtle judgements and thoughts. The self appears to emerge in thoughts/beliefs. But this is not easy. The more I can embrace the sensations independent of the thoughts, the smaller the sense of self. It is easier in focused meditation, but today getting somewhat smother outside of meditation.
Yes. But don't make thought the enemy. It may seem like an enemy at the moment as it is imagined that 'someone' must try to 'side-step' judgment. But I know exactly what you mean.

As sensations, such as warmth in the hands, is noticed there may be an experience for which there are really no words? But notice that once thought-labeling has started up the immediate experience of sensation seems to have receded and is more or less replaced by the thinking?

But there is a second and equally valid way of looking.

Just noticing that thoughts show up is good.

Even better is to see that each thought carries its own announcemet or story ABOUT what is going on.

This is to see the illusion as it is woven.


love

Jon

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Treelife
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Treelife » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:10 pm

Hi Jon
But there is a second and equally valid way of looking.
Just noticing that thoughts show up is good.
Even better is to see that each thought carries its own announcemet or story ABOUT what is going on.
Yes there are sensations and there are thoughts. Some thoughts are independent, some are response to the sense data. The ones that really catch, really hook 'me' in are the judgements. If I recall correctly I think Ilona wrote about shoulds/should nots and also wants. This is accurate although I find whatever the form the most powerful 'self' is within judgements. A lot of what is arising is very subtle and at times can also see deep core beliefs - not good enough.
I have had an understanding of this before but the exercises makes it quite transparent.
Anyway most relevant to LU is the key source of the self.

With love
M


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