Wispered Dreams

[Ormus]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that although I have read and understood the theory, there is a deeper level of the certainty of 'knowing' that can make the experience of no-self permeate every aspect of life. In other words, I've 'got' it, but I don't 'have' it and I want it - I just don't seem to be able to 'get' it by myself.

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance to remove all the barriers/delusions that prevent me from cutting the ties to the illusion of self and the experience of separation, so I can clearly see/feel/get that there never was a self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am expecting that my guide will be able to detect, and assist me to remove, all barriers/ delusions that prevent the experience of no-self and that enable me to maintain the experience of separation.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Briefly: Psychology of the ego, transpersonal hypnotherapy/psychology, a course in miracles, the I am teachings, Jed Mckenna. Basically, anything and everything, with a focus on refining/removing beliefs/emotional pain etc.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Sarah7]

Hi Ormus
I'm Sarah and I am happy to speak with you. Do you wish me to call you this? Or something else?
Have you looked around out site? You know what we do here?
Looking forward to our conversation
Hugs Sarah

[Ormus]

Hi Sarah,

I very much appreciate you taking the time and effort to help me.
Ormus is a good name to use, thank you for asking.
I have spent some time reading threads, have read Gateless Gatecrashers and
I am very determined to give this everything I can.
So, yes, I know what you do here and I am beyond grateful to have found this site and the amazing people on it.

Beyond grateful
Ormus
xxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Ormus
House keeping first:
In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. Read the article at for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience: http://liberationunleashed.com/resource ... xperience/

Please learn to use the quote function, see for instructions: http://liberationunleashed.com/resource ... xperience/

Finally you can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

So from where you are now can you answer the below.

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Ormus]

Hi Sarah,

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

I experience self as fear personified. It wants to be in control of everything, especially the body, and yet to keep itself separate so no-one can see it for what it really is. It morphs as emotions, thoughts and opinions are expressed and it has infiltrated everything, but it is nothing. It is a constant battle to remind myself that it is not real and has no power, or connection, to anything.

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

There is not much of a story left and I cannot say that the self has character and personality or acts, etc. because I know (mentally) that it does not exist and when I look deeper at I, the thoughts arrive immediately that there is nothing to look at. I suspect that fear (of death/no self/whatever) is what hinders me but I cannot seem to pinpoint that either.
When I am engrossed in a task, reading, enjoying nature, meditation, self seems to disappear but it does not last.

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

It seems to be located somewhere behind my head but I really can't pinpoint it. It must be there because the fear and the sense of separation is there.

Thanks so much
Ormus xxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Ormus

There is not much of a story left and I cannot say that the self has character and personality or acts, etc. because I know (mentally) that it does not exist and when I look deeper at I, the thoughts arrive immediately that there is nothing to look at. I suspect that fear (of death/no self/whatever) is what hinders me but I cannot seem to pinpoint that either.
When I am engrossed in a task, reading, enjoying nature, meditation, self seems to disappear but it does not last.

Where is the story still left?
What are your expectations as to what you think will happen or should happen.

It seems to be located somewhere behind my head but I really can't pinpoint it. It must be there because the fear and the sense of separation is there.

Is fear yours? Do you bring it? Do you control it? What makes fear yours?

Have a look at the fear itself. What is it made up of? Thoughts, story, sensation, emotions? Anything else? What describes the fear? What explains it? What gives it a story? I have a longer exercise for this if needed.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Ormus]

Hi Sarah,

Where is the story still left?

Nowhere specific, just like other thoughts or emotions that arise.

What are your expectations as to what you think will happen or should happen.

I expect that when I look at self that I should see/feel a nothingness, a hole or blackness but all there is an awareness that extends out from my body.

Is fear yours?

Fear is something that is learned/accepted as part of what makes up myself. I understand that as there is no self, there can be no fear that is mine, but my experience of the idea of no self elicits fear.

Do you bring it?

Attaching emotion to thoughts brings it.

Do you control it?

I have never been able to control fear or even what it does to my body.

What makes fear yours?

What it does to my body or rather how my body reacts to the thoughts of fear.

Have a look at the fear itself. What is it made up of? Thoughts, story, sensation, emotions? Anything else? What describes the fear? What explains it? What gives it a story?

It is made up of expectations, thoughts of future possibilities, the stories heard of how things could/did go wrong, thoughts of losing control, thoughts of what others will say, a whole bunch of what ifs and how will I cope if 'it' does happen. So fear is made up of thoughts, hearsay and emotions - probably the ones that led me to think that there might be a self to protect.
But, if there is no self, then who will protect the body, who will tell it when to do what and whatever, who will control it? Who will fulfil my commitments and interact with my family, friends, etc? Hence the fear of no self is exposed.
Thank you so much
Ormus xxx

[Sarah7]

Morning Orm

I expect that when I look at self that I should see/feel a nothingness, a hole or blackness but all there is an awareness that extends out from my body.

When you look now what do you see? A body? Thought? What?

Fear is something that is learned/accepted as part of what makes up myself. I understand that as there is no self, there can be no fear that is mine, but my experience of the idea of no self elicits fear.

Is fear resisted? If so what resists it? Is it thought? Or something else?

It is made up of expectations, thoughts of future possibilities, the stories heard of how things could/did go wrong, thoughts of losing control, thoughts of what others will say, a whole bunch of what ifs and how will I cope if 'it' does happen. So fear is made up of thoughts, hearsay and emotions - probably the ones that led me to think that there might be a self to protect.

Excellent noticing here. All of which is done by thought?

But, if there is no self, then who will protect the body, who will tell it when to do what and whatever, who will control it? Who will fulfil my commitments and interact with my family, friends, etc? Hence the fear of no self is exposed.

Well this is what we will explore! Interestingly what says there IS a self? And what says it won't happen if I'm not here..... etc. Thought?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Ormus]

Hi Sarah

When you look now what do you see? A body? Thought? What?

No, I cannot say that I can see a body or single thought. The awareness is always there, it is like a tool that I use to sense things (like read others, find objects, etc) there is no sense of self there. The only sense of a self that I could claim is like an automation of thoughts arising claiming ownership of objects and emotions (e.g. My body, My emotions, etc.). It is the automation that attracts my attention because I cannot stop it, thoughts just keep coming up.

Is fear resisted? If so what resists it? Is it thought? Or something else?

No, fear is not resisted. Sometimes I will try to reason myself out of it but mostly it is identified as fear, investigated as to the deepest cause and dissolved with thought, or dissipated over time. I know that it is always thought and emotion that starts fear, that it is the self that fears, and that affects the body.

Excellent noticing here. All of which is done by thought?

Some, but mostly I used the sensations in the body to track the thoughts which caused the fear.

Well this is what we will explore! Interestingly what says there IS a self? And what says it won't happen if I'm not here..... etc. Thought?

When you put it like that it is easy to see that there is nothing that says there is a self, or even an understanding/sensation/foundation of a self. Just the mad panic of thoughts of what ifs but nothing behind it. Thoughts of mad panic happening, raising fears of mad panic, but no actual mad panic. Are thoughts all there are, and if so, how do you hold the ability to see behind the thoughts, to the nothingness of them, in your consciousness, all the time?
Thank you so much
Ormus xxx

[Sarah7]

Morning Orm
So let's start digging. I may go over things you have already looked at but please bear with me! I like to be thorough! :) and no rush for a response OK.

OK. Id like you to just sit for 5-10 minutes with a paper and pen and I want you to record everything you notice from your ‘I’ list. I want you to look at what experiences come up, what actions you notice, what labels you see and WHERE they are applied, what feelings and emotions come up, and what sensations arise.
Don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….
Id like you then to repeat the exercise doing exactly the same as you did above, but this time I don’t want you to use the word ‘I’ or ‘me’ when you write the list of what you notice. Again don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…
What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises? Is life is happening, is looking is happening, is getting lost in the story happening with or without label I? Which feels truer?

If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?

Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership? Can you see where and when it labels - before, during or after?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Ormus]

Hi Sarah,

Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc…

I list: I am lounging on the couch (relaxation); I am waiting for something to write with an I in it; I am looking at my watch; I am frustrated;; I am tired (more relaxed); my eyes are closing; I am not doing of anything (frustration); I notice deep breathing; I feel pressured to do this exercise properly; I am writing something (tension); I am looking very deeply (frustration); I don't want to fail this exercise (more tension and exasperation); I hear traffic, etc.

Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…

Other list: writing list; feeling comfortable; tired; breathing deeply; hearing dogs barking; body's hot; feeling heart beating; sensation of scrunched toes; waiting for next thought, hear clock chime, flicking pencil, writing, the body's thirsty; patting dog (relaxing).

What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises?

I notice that there was much more tension/discomfort to the 'I list' session while the other session was a much more relaxed state of being and observing.

Is life is happening, (I assume it means: is life just happening?)

Yes, quite clearly but I didn't see that until I wrote about it.

Is looking is happening?

Yes, looking/observing is much easier when I am not trying to attribute everything to an I/me.

Is getting lost in the story happening with or without label I?

I observe that getting lost in the story is not really possible when there is no I/me/mine to own it.

Which feels truer?

The second exercise not only feels truer but it feels more comfortable.

If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?

Yes, imagined ownership not only feels heavier but also promotes illusions of responsibility.

Now I want you to look during your day at how labeling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc. See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc?

I can see that I apply the I/me/mine more frequently to thinking about doing e.g. I am doing, I must do, I will do, as opposed to thoughts of or stories.

Is it all the time, most of the time?

Some of the time.

Is it like a commentary or like an ownership?

Definitely ownership.

Can you see where and when it labels - before, during or after?

If I understand this question correctly, it would be before.

Thank you so much
Ormus xxx (ok, hugs too)

[Sarah7]

Mornin!

Yes, quite clearly but I didn't see that until I wrote about it

and

I observe that getting lost in the story is not really possible when there is no I/me/mine to own it.

Excellent noticing!
Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.
Whether your mind is totally concentrating on each gear shift that 'I' make, each look in the rear view mirror that 'I' makes, each twist of the steering wheel . . . or the entire journey is done automatically, the same result is achieved. Similarly when doing household tasks. Whether mind is involved or not, the task still gets accomplished. We call this autopilot. How much of your day is autopilot? Just give me a rough percentage.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Ormus]

How much of your day is autopilot? Just give me a rough percentage.

Yes, I know this state very well. I would have to say less than 10%.
Ormus xxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Ormus
Is autopilot to be got rid of? If so why?

Do you intentionally bring thoughts? Or do they come and go on their own? If you do bring them from where and how?
Can you send them away, stop them or get rid? Can you suppress your next thought before it arises? Does it work?
Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?
Do you plan what you are going to think before you think it?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Ormus]

Hi Sarah,

Is autopilot to be got rid of? If so why?

I would say yes, if possible, because isn't autopilot an immersion in thought streams, imagined conversations, etc. to the exclusion of awareness. I would prefer to be aware of what is in the close environment and of what the body is actually doing/experiencing than to be focused on imaginings.

Do you intentionally bring thoughts? Or do they come and go on their own? If you do bring them from where and how?

Intentional problem solving can bring thoughts of solutions but generally thoughts are just thoughts. They come and go unbidden, and where they come from, or where they go, I have no idea, and no amount of looking on my part seems to find them or a point of origin. I generally try to ignore them so as not to give them any emotional power or magnetize more of the same.

Can you send them away, stop them or get rid? Can you suppress your next thought before it arises? Does it work?

No, of course not - wish I could.

Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?

No, sorry can't, doesn't work.

Do you plan what you are going to think before you think it?

No, can't do that either.
Thank you so much
Ormus xxx