I "get" no-self but have no experience of it

[MichaelD]

Part 3 (Reminds me of Ian Dury)

We will address the background sense of 'I am' later but for now pursue your line of enquiry because you are seeing exactly what needs to be seen.

Having observed that no sensor is required to see, hear and smell etc and there isn't a thinker required for thinking can you locate a seperate self anywhere in experience?

To put it another way. Is there anything more than simply experience occurring.

Have fun!

Michael

[sadhaka]

Hi Michael,

Fantastic!! So is a seperate self required for perception to occur or does it just happen?

I am more or less convinced now that a separate self is not required for sense perception to occur. At this moment, in fact, it seems to me that the situation is reversed. That is, a sense of self is assumed or (incorrectly?) derived due to sense perception. I seem to be inferring something like "I see therefore I must be". Whereas, what direct observations seems to show is just "seeing", "listening", etc are occurring.

To explore thought further try the following:

Stopping a thought
Choosing the next thought (and the next)
Only thinking thought 'you' want to think e.g. only happy thoughts.

1. Stopping a thought seems impossible. Sort of like "Don't think of a monkey", which automatically causes thoughts of monkeys.

2. I can sort of choose the topic of the next thought. For example, "I will now think about what to do tomorrow". This seed decision then causes thoughts to flow of their own accord. Overall, there seems to be some choice in the matter, though I will admit that I can not completely determine the next thought

3. Only thinking certain thoughts is certainly not possible. Requires extra will and tremendous effort and it cannot be sustained but for the briefest of moments.

To put it another way. Is there anything more than simply experience occurring.

There does not seem to be anything other than experience occurring! When I search for the experiencer, there seems to be none. It seems to be "experience all the way down". But, when I do not pay attention to this fact, there seems to be some root confusion/haziness that sets in. I do not know if this source of confusion can be called a self, but some change seems to happen when attention to this fact diminishes.

Thanks,
sadhaka

[MichaelD]

Hi Sadhaka,

Thanks for your post. You seem to have a natural flow to your investigation.

Early on you state that you are now more or less convinced that a seperate self is not required for sense perception to occur but later state that there does not seem to be anything other than experience occurring.

Keep looking until you are completely sure.

You also observe that because objects appear we infer a self. This is a very astute observation and (at least partly) explains why the subject object dichotomy arises.

You can explore this further by investigating more closely where you end and other begins. Re explore your just sitting excercises specifically trying to locate where your body ends. Can you find a boundary? With eyes closed is generally easier.

See if it seems more like a field of sensation rather
than a defined you and discrete seperate objects around you.

In your last paragraph (if I have understood you correctly) you are describing how you are moving in and out of seeing no seperate self. This is normal and just requires you to keep looking.

Furthering your work with thoughts keep watching. See if you can spot what the I thoughts are doing. Particularly when you carry out an action such as getting up to go and make a drink or get something from another room.

It is a joy to work with you so please carry on exactly as you are!

Michael

[sadhaka]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the constant guidance and encouragement!

Keep looking until you are completely sure.

I will do so and get back soon. I was not able to spend any explicit time on this today though I keep slipping into "pure perception" mode a few times in the day (especially when I think about our ongoing conversation).

You can explore this further by investigating more closely where you end and other begins. Re explore your just sitting excercises specifically trying to locate where your body ends. Can you find a boundary? With eyes closed is generally easier.

See if it seems more like a field of sensation rather
than a defined you and discrete seperate objects around you.

I did the exercise very briefly and had different results with eyes closed and eyes open. Strangely enough, with my eyes open, it seemed that there was no clear place where my body ends. My body continues till wherever my perception continues. With eyes closed, my body seems to end where my eyes end. Since I only spent a little time with this, I shall do this more thoroughly and get back tomorrow.

It is a joy to work with you so please carry on exactly as you are!

The joy has been all mine. It is a privilege to have such a clear, compassionate and involved guide.

Thanks,
sadhaka

[MichaelD]

Hi Sadhaka,

Sorry for missing yesterday. Out all day without phone and back too late to write.

It seems that you have not had much opportunity for consistent/focussed looking so there is not much new to comment on. However you do describe;

I keep slipping into "pure perception" mode a few times in the day.

Is that what is happening? Please describe more fully.

When there is pure perception mode is there an 'I' present? Perhaps an 'I' thought claims the experience afterwards. Look to see what is true.

I await with anticipation your further boundary experiments. If there is only perception where do you, Sadhaka, begin?

As a further related excercise you could also point with your finger to where the self is located. Where is it exactly?

Warmly,

Michael

[sadhaka]

Hi Michael,

I am sorry for the delay in replying.

I keep slipping into "pure perception" mode a few times in the day.

Is that what is happening? Please describe more fully.

Thanks for asking this question. By "pure perception" I mean the following experience. Currently, for instance, I simply see a screen in front of me with letters appearing on the screen. There seems to be very little judgment, or even volition involved in it. It feels somewhat similar to the object exercise you asked me to do earlier. This happens for a few instances in a day.

When there is pure perception mode is there an 'I' present? Perhaps an 'I' thought claims the experience afterwards. Look to see what is true.

The latter is closer to my experience. When there is pure perception, it is accompanied by an absence of any tangible "I" (more about this later in this post). You are also correct that after the few seconds that it lasts, a thought comes up later saying "Now that is what I call pure perception", etc. That is, judgments about the experience cause a more tangible sense of "I".

I await with anticipation your further boundary experiments.

I found it easier to perform these with my eyes open. Am I doing this wrong?

With my eyes open, I could find no boundary to my self. The only conclusion I could come to was, (either) it is all me, whatever I can perceive -- the computer, the sky, the trees, all that is within experience. Or, there is no me at all -- but this seems to be more intellectual and the former, "all me" conclusion seems more visceral.

If there is only perception where do you, Sadhaka, begin?
As a further related excercise you could also point with your finger to where the self is located. Where is it exactly?

Both these led me to the same conclusion. At this point, I cannot locate a concrete self! However, there does seem to be within me an energy which tells me I am awake/aware and not, say, asleep. This is the best approximation to a sense of self that I can point out to.
============

I also wished to inform you that I will be traveling till Monday, and might be constrained by time and the availability of the internet. On the positive side, I expect to have lots of free time on Saturday and parts of Sunday and could do any deep dives and focused experiments that you could suggest.

Thanks once again for the constant and insightful guidance.

Thanks,
sadhaka

[MichaelD]

Hi Sadhaka,

No worries about the odd missed day. Given that we are both on holiday/ traveling we are doing very well.

When there is pure perception, it is accompanied by an absence of any tangible "I"

Great!

Then you describe how thought comes in labelling and making judgements. This is very accurate noticing.

Do you see that the I is a thought based construct, an ongoing narrative starring you as the central character?

Is there any seperate I located outside thought?

Does thought have any inherent substance or is it empty?

Is your sense of I just a thought story?

Will send this now and will follow with a further response to your post.

Happy hols!

Michael

[MichaelD]

Hi Sadhaka,

Part 2 :)

Eyes open or closed - all is good.

Really, as you know now, it all comes down to searching for the fixed seperate self that we believe is there and eventually coming to see that it is non existent outside of thought stories. So keep on the hunt in any way your intuition leads, or down which ever path seems most illuminating.

In your post you said:

With my eyes open, it seemed that there was no clear place where my body ends.

Who's body? Who or what owns a body?

Or could this be seen as "There is no self and no boundaries within perception"

Have a good look!!

Perhaps there is just perception?

And thought.

Take your time as posting may be a little difficult for me over the next day or two.

You are doing really well :)

Have fun

Michael

[MichaelD]

Hi Sadhaka,

Part 2 :)

Eyes open or closed - all is good.

Really, as you know now, it all comes down to searching for the fixed seperate self that we believe is there and eventually coming to see that it is non existent outside of thought stories. So keep on the hunt in any way your intuition leads, or down which ever path seems most illuminating.

In your post you said:

With my eyes open, it seemed that there was no clear place where my body ends.

Who's body? Who or what owns a body?

Or could this be seen as "There is no self and no boundaries within perception"

Have a good look!!

Perhaps there is just perception?

And thought.

Take your time as posting may be a little difficult for me over the next day or two.

You are doing really well :)

Have fun

Michael

[sadhaka]

Hi Michael,

I was just posting to say that I just returned from my trip and will start posting from tomorrow. I am sorry I could not post while I was traveling.

Thanks,
sadhaka

[MichaelD]

Hi Sadhaka,

Thanks for your note. I too am travetravelling back to the UK today so getting back on the case again from now is perfect timing.

I recall that I left you with quite a number of questions so await your reply eagerly!

:)

Michael

[sadhaka]

Hi Michael,

I had some time over Sunday to ponder and focus and had listed all the recent questions you raised. I have written down my current answers. However, I do wish to point out that all these answers appeared to be "true for me" when I relaxed and focused and thought about them, but in some sense, they were not true when I was not thinking of them. I have just given an example of this in the first question

========
Question 1

Having observed that no sensor is required to see, hear and smell etc and there isn't a thinker required for thinking can you locate a seperate self anywhere in experience?

To put it another way. Is there anything more than simply experience occurring.

===================

No. There is nothing other than experience occurring. Indeed, it seems to be impossible for anything other than experience to be occurring! This seems almost obvious, in hindsight.

[sadhaka]

==============
Question 2

Early on you state that you are now more or less convinced that a seperate self is not required for sense perception to occur but later state that there does not seem to be anything other than experience occurring.

Keep looking until you are completely sure.

======================
I am certain now that there is no “self” required for perception to occur. But again, I am only certain of this when I pay attention to this fact.

[sadhaka]

=======================
Question 3

If there is only perception where do you, Sadhaka, begin?

===================
This really got me in a spin! I cannot find where I begin or end. It seems to me that I am perception.

[sadhaka]

===============
Question 4

As a further related excercise you could also point with your finger to where the self is located. Where is it exactly?

===================

I cannot localize it. One of two things happen, when I try to locate it -- either it is everywhere (that is, wherever I turn my attention, there it is) or it is nowhere. It depends on what I am looking for. There seems to be no particular self behind the attention paying -- it just seems like attention is being paid. And attention seems to be the place where the strongest self-identification happens, (at least for me)