Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

[samba19]

Hey man, I'll write tomorrow...

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Sure thing - I may have already said this but please don't be pressured to write a lengthy post. Actually it can start to get confusing if we're juggling too many things/questions. I just took a look at my last response and it's a lengthy one! However, you're still free to write lots if you feel called.

Wesley

[samba19]

Yo! Thanks for your patience by the way Wesley!

that a movie without a watcher is pointless

Why is it pointless?

I don’t know, I can only offer thoughts once again… blah.. toilet calling..

On the other hand I can’t prove anything else either

Are you sure? Pick up a nearby object or look around the room, I would hope there's a laptop or computer screen in front of you that you're able to read this, doesn't that exist?

I’m not trying to make your job harder bro :) just questioning everything so I can be sure that I’ve looked everywhere. What I meant was that is there undeniable proof for even direct experience? Aren’t the dreams we dream at night some sort of direct experience too? I have no proof for night dreaming any more than experience of “waking life”. But if your point is that direct experience is at least “more real” than just thoughts - with that I have to agree. Am I making any sense once again?

And if I can actually be 100% sure that direct experience is real, let me know how! Perhaps the word I’m referring to is “truth” but I remember you not liking that one :) Isn’t it once again a thought that says: “you’re experiencing color” ?

So:
-What's the evidence we have for the existence of radio waves? Or any other kind of waves/rays that we cannot detect with the senses?

It requires belief in gadgets that supposedly can sense these frequencies.

-What's the evidence for the me/self/I?

Thoughts & beliefs only. And I guess beliefs are thoughts that were not questioned. So thoughts. Like in the previous question.

There's a wonderful quote that you may enjoy: Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

So what stays without any belief, and what "goes away" so to speak?

Good quote! According to JedMcKenna you can ditch the belief in life, universe and everything else for that matter. I can’t say that I can experience that directly but I guess it’s a possibility. So I’m not sure if anything at all stays if ALL beliefs are gone. But for now, the five senses and seeing thoughts is the answer. I’m fine with ditching just the “me” part for now :) I guess that was the idea of this project, not the absolute ‘truth’. Sorry for that word again…

Yes! So just see what it actually is in your direct experience - sensation in belly + thoughts of resistance.

Yep, it’s actually very liberating not having to label all sensations and emotions as something. I once thought that I need to learn what they are, now I realise experiencing them as they are is enough. So, what’s next Wesley my guide? :)

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Yo! Thanks for your patience by the way Wesley!

No problem :). And please use the word truth all you want! Use any words that seem best fit for your experience.

I’m not trying to make your job harder bro :) just questioning everything so I can be sure that I’ve looked everywhere. What I meant was that is there undeniable proof for even direct experience? Aren’t the dreams we dream at night some sort of direct experience too? I have no proof for night dreaming any more than experience of “waking life”. But if your point is that direct experience is at least “more real” than just thoughts - with that I have to agree. Am I making any sense once again?

I understand, it's good that you're questioning.

Let's take a step back and define terms so to speak. If we're going to be successful in this search for "me," we should be clear on what direct experience is, how it differs from the content of thought, and most importantly what this "me" is that we're looking for.

So, what is direct experience as you see it now? What's the difference between "thoughts" and "thought-content"? Are thoughts apart of direct experience, separate, or neither?

What does undeniable proof look like to you? What form does it take? A thought? A seeing?

And if I can actually be 100% sure that direct experience is real, let me know how!

What does it mean for something to be "real"?

Good quote! According to JedMcKenna you can ditch the belief in life, universe and everything else for that matter. I can’t say that I can experience that directly but I guess it’s a possibility. So I’m not sure if anything at all stays if ALL beliefs are gone. But for now, the five senses and seeing thoughts is the answer. I’m fine with ditching just the “me” part for now :) I guess that was the idea of this project, not the absolute ‘truth’. Sorry for that word again…

What is the difference between a belief in something, and that something? Are these the same, or are they distinct?

I’m not sure if anything at all stays if ALL beliefs are gone.

So you mean that if all thinking stops, everything goes away? A belief is a thought that's taken to be true, right? So take a moment and wait patiently for the next thought to arise. Take note of the temporary quiet. Now move your attention to the sights and sounds around, did they stay? Did they go?

Yep, it’s actually very liberating not having to label all sensations and emotions as something. I once thought that I need to learn what they are, now I realise experiencing them as they are is enough. So, what’s next Wesley my guide? :)

That's great! As you start looking more and more, you may find that things don't need to be interpreted to simply be there. These questions are next :).

Wesley

[samba19]

So, what is direct experience as you see it now? What's the difference between "thoughts" and "thought-content"? Are thoughts apart of direct experience, separate, or neither?

You always catch me shooting myself in the back behind the corner :) Perhaps I misunderstood the concept of direct experience. I thought that direct experience referred to something experienced through the five senses in the now. And everything else being just thoughts. But then again, thoughts are experienced in the now as well so I can’t say they are separate in that sense. But still not the same as direct experience, since the content of thought is just concepts and mental images. This is hard to explain, damn!

What does undeniable proof look like to you? What form does it take? A thought? A seeing?

I can’t say. I don’t think anything like that exists. So we are left with what we can experience.

What does it mean for something to be "real"?

You caught me again with my pants down. I can’t define this one either. I guess the next best thing is the content of the now through the five senses, without stories made up by thoughts as a side order. Let’s call that reality. I’ll leave truth aside, can’t define it and can never know what that even is. I don’t know why I ever even bothered about “truth”. LOLs at myself.

What is the difference between a belief in something, and that something? Are these the same, or are they distinct?

This jammed my head for the whole day. Maybe if I take an example and write this out, it might make things easier. Here’s a belief:

“The Loch Ness monster is real.“

Here the “something” is the Loch Ness monster. Which is a bunch of concepts. And belief in that monster is an assumption that it could be experienced in reality. I’m not getting anywhere further than that… a little help? :)

So you mean that if all thinking stops, everything goes away? A belief is a thought that's taken to be true, right? So take a moment and wait patiently for the next thought to arise. Take note of the temporary quiet. Now move your attention to the sights and sounds around, did they stay? Did they go?

Yeah, maybe I’ve misunderstood the concept of belief as well. I thought that any experiencing at all requires belief. But I have no proof of this so trash can calling once again. Sense perception doesn’t stop even if there’s a pause in thinking. But then again how can I be sure that thinking has stopped? If time doesn’t exist? This is confusing… blah… I think I need to get clearer about belief through examples or something.

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

I thought that direct experience referred to something experienced through the five senses in the now. And everything else being just thoughts. But then again, thoughts are experienced in the now as well so I can’t say they are separate in that sense. But still not the same as direct experience, since the content of thought is just concepts and mental images. This is hard to explain, damn!

You have it right! And you explained it very well. It is just useful to grasp this distinction for what we're doing, because if you look right now in your direct experience you will not find a "me" "I" or "self" anywhere - only thoughts of one. If thought-content is believed to be real, that is to say perceived with the senses, then this "me" may seem ever convincingly real. Would this be accurate to say? I can't find a me anywhere, but it just feels it's here somewhere.

I can’t say. I don’t think anything like that exists. So we are left with what we can experience

Bingo ;). Could it be just another thought?

You caught me again with my pants down. I can’t define this one either. I guess the next best thing is the content of the now through the five senses, without stories made up by thoughts as a side order. Let’s call that reality. I’ll leave truth aside, can’t define it and can never know what that even is. I don’t know why I ever even bothered about “truth”. LOLs at myself.

:D. It really isn't necessary to define all of this, what I'm trying to get you to notice is the distinct quality of what is your direct experience, and what is thought-content. For example, if I ask you to imagine a lemon as best you can, all that's needed is to recognize that this lemon cannot be experienced the same as a real lemon that you can go and pick up. Yet you can get so detailed with imagination, you can nearly taste it! However, if you go and pick up a real lemon, there is a difference here, yes?

So there's a lemon in your mind, and a real lemon. The thought "lemon" refers to something findable. The thought "me," does it refer to something findable? What can you find that is "me"?

Here the “something” is the Loch Ness monster. Which is a bunch of concepts. And belief in that monster is an assumption that it could be experienced in reality. I’m not getting anywhere further than that… a little help? :)

I love your example ;D. So I'm not making any philosophical statements about "the universe," or Nessy for that matter. My only question is when you refer to the universe, are you referring to a thought about a universe, or are you perceiving the universe right now? You can look up at the sky and see stars, maybe even a couple planets, and you can look around at this planet we're on, but "universe" is a concept much like "Germany" is a concept. Very useful, and we'll of course continue using both of these words I'm sure. However, if you go to Germany and try to find "Germany," you may be a little bewildered I imagine.

So with "I", we are constantly referring to it. Language is constantly reinforcing it. The question is, where is it? What is it?

Yeah, maybe I’ve misunderstood the concept of belief as well. I thought that any experiencing at all requires belief. But I have no proof of this so trash can calling once again. Sense perception doesn’t stop even if there’s a pause in thinking. But then again how can I be sure that thinking has stopped? If time doesn’t exist? This is confusing… blah… I think I need to get clearer about belief through examples or something.

I encourage you to trust your experience here. This is 100% about you looking at your direct experience. So take any concept that seems confusing to yourself and simply ask "how do I know this? Where did this come from?" And look. I thought that any experiencing at all requires belief, well how does it really work then right now?. What you may find is simply what has always been going on, the sights, sounds, smells, sensations around you. Is this true? Try it now, see how belief works in your experience, not how you think it works according to thoughts.

We can look into time next if you'd like. The fact that this "trash can" seems to be getting lots of attention is a great thing! We are peeling off the layers to find what's here with or without belief, and it isn't always comfortable or easy - in fact it can be very confusing.

Big hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

Thanks again for clearance Wesley! I'll write tomorrow, too tired right now... zzz ... zzz...

[samba19]

Hi Wesley!

Would this be accurate to say? I can't find a me anywhere, but it just feels it's here somewhere.

That’s what it feels like yes, like the “me” would be somewhere, yet it can’t be pinpointed.

If thought-content is believed to be real, that is to say perceived with the senses, …

Can you explain this one a bit more? Do you mean that if I confuse direct experience and thoughts with each other, then I may start to accidentally believe that the thoughts are real? Thoughts can’t be perceived by the senses, right? Just noticed “in some way”? “Seen”?

I can’t say. I don’t think anything like that exists. So we are left with what we can experience

Bingo ;). Could it be just another thought?

Yes, another thought, what else could I ever offer you :)

For example, if I ask you to imagine a lemon as best you can, all that's needed is to recognize that this lemon cannot be experienced the same as a real lemon that you can go and pick up. Yet you can get so detailed with imagination, you can nearly taste it! However, if you go and pick up a real lemon, there is a difference here, yes?

Yes, of course there’s a difference. But it’s confusing that a real lemon can’t be directly experienced, right? Only the sensations that the concept points to, right? And also, most people have experienced the lemon thing but not for example the Loch Ness Monster. So let’s say I bump into the Nessie in “real life” while hiking in scotland - what then? Where does belief come to play? Do we start taking the thought content as real AFTER we experience the thing in actual experience? My head just got jammed - once again.

So there's a lemon in your mind, and a real lemon. The thought "lemon" refers to something findable. The thought "me," does it refer to something findable? What can you find that is "me"?

Thoughts only.

So with "I", we are constantly referring to it. Language is constantly reinforcing it. The question is, where is it? What is it?

I = a thought.

I encourage you to trust your experience here. This is 100% about you looking at your direct experience. So take any concept that seems confusing to yourself and simply ask "how do I know this? Where did this come from?" And look. I thought that any experiencing at all requires belief, well how does it really work then right now?. What you may find is simply what has always been going on, the sights, sounds, smells, sensations around you. Is this true? Try it now, see how belief works in your experience, not how you think it works according to thoughts.

Well if beliefs are the same thing as thoughts are, then the thought “I exists” can be taken for real or not. Right? I can’t find anything else in direct experience. Isn’t it just a matter of choice? I could witness a white-bearded guy in a red outfit pulling presents out of his butt and saying ho-ho and still choose to believe or not to believe in Santa Claus - am I on the right track here or did I miss something?

We can look into time next if you'd like. The fact that this "trash can" seems to be getting lots of attention is a great thing! We are peeling off the layers to find what's here with or without belief, and it isn't always comfortable or easy - in fact it can be very confusing.

Yes, let’s find out that time doesn’t exist! :) I’m ready!

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

That’s what it feels like yes, like the “me” would be somewhere, yet it can’t be pinpointed.

Lovely. Wherever you think it is, that's precisely where you should look. Meet every "it seems like it's here" with a "okay, then where?"

Well if beliefs are the same thing as thoughts are, then the thought “I exists” can be taken for real or not. Right?

This is logic. Look in your experience, what is a belief? Trust what you find :)

Yes, of course there’s a difference. But it’s confusing that a real lemon can’t be directly experienced, right? Only the sensations that the concept points to, right?

Right! Forget all labels for a moment. What we refer to as a lemon can be picked up, it can be seen, and felt and everything else. Then there is what's thought-content: "lemon" "yellow" "tastes sour" "used with salads" etc.

Now let's look at "I". What is the raw sense data of "I"? And what are the thoughts of it?

With Nessie, all the same: are thoughts about Nessie, the real Nessie? You're stranded in the desert, it's stifling hot and you're beginning to become worried at this point. Water is the only thing important to you now. Is a thought about water going to quench this thirst? No matter how vivid, detailed, and real? Is it real water?

I could witness a white-bearded guy in a red outfit pulling presents out of his butt and saying ho-ho and still choose to believe or not to believe in Santa Claus - am I on the right track here or did I miss something?

Santa is LU famous! So glad you mentioned him :D. Let's say you say him, the real deal there he is. You choose not to believe in him. Does the white-beareded guy in a red outfit disappear? Or better yet, could Santa have just been a white-bearded dude in a red outfit after all?

Let's say you stop believing in "I", does it disappear? Doesn't something need to be there first, to disappear?

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

Heyah Wessie! I made a nickname for you :)

Lovely. Wherever you think it is, that's precisely where you should look. Meet every "it seems like it's here" with a "okay, then where?"

Yep. Never have found an “I”. But when I hear my name or I’m being addressed, sometimes a sensation activates, usually in the throat/stomach area. I’ll keep looking…

Well if beliefs are the same thing as thoughts are, then the thought “I exists” can be taken for real or not. Right?

This is logic. Look in your experience, what is a belief? Trust what you find :)

I can’t find a belief in direct experience. The 5 senses can’t sense beliefs.

Now let's look at "I". What is the raw sense data of "I"? And what are the thoughts of it?

No raw sense data at all. Thoughts about “I” are endless. A forest of labels and ownership etc.

With Nessie, all the same: are thoughts about Nessie, the real Nessie? You're stranded in the desert, it's stifling hot and you're beginning to become worried at this point. Water is the only thing important to you now. Is a thought about water going to quench this thirst? No matter how vivid, detailed, and real? Is it real water?

No, thoughts do not make up for the real thing, as in Nessie, water or anything else. Just saying that I have experienced “real” water, but not a real “Nessie”. That doesn’t mean that Nessie couldn’t exist, right? Now it seems that illusion is a direct experience too like when I smoke a joint and start seeing little green men - that’s a direct experience as well as seeing water or touching grass while not under the effect of any substances? Kinda hard to draw the line there with these definitions…

Santa is LU famous! So glad you mentioned him :D. Let's say you say him, the real deal there he is. You choose not to believe in him. Does the white-beareded guy in a red outfit disappear? Or better yet, could Santa have just been a white-bearded dude in a red outfit after all?

Probably his potential disappearance won’t have anything to do with me believing in him or not. And yeah you're right, Santa is a concept once again, given to the walking white-bearded coca-cola advertisement figure.

Let's say you stop believing in "I", does it disappear? Doesn't something need to be there first, to disappear?

Since it never was there, it can’t really stop being there in that sense. I suspect thoughts will be popping up about “I” for some time if not forever (my this or that, I did this or that etc.). I just won’t believe them anymore. And emotional reactivity hasn’t completely stopped so I guess there are still layers to peel off in there.

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Heyah Wessie! I made a nickname for you :)

Hah! When I was small my cousin called me "Fussy" in an attempt to say "Wessy".

Yep. Never have found an “I”. But when I hear my name or I’m being addressed, sometimes a sensation activates, usually in the throat/stomach area. I’ll keep looking…

Good observation there. So what makes a sensation in the throat or stomach area a "me"? Why isn't a sensation in your toe associated with me, or the saliva in your mouth?

I can’t find a belief in direct experience. The 5 senses can’t sense beliefs.

Well seen.

No raw sense data at all. Thoughts about “I” are endless. A forest of labels and ownership etc.

Great job. Keep looking for the real "I". As you said, thoughts of it are endless but the question remains: Is a thought of me, a me?

That doesn’t mean that Nessie couldn’t exist, right? Now it seems that illusion is a direct experience too like when I smoke a joint and start seeing little green men - that’s a direct experience as well as seeing water or touching grass while not under the effect of any substances? Kinda hard to draw the line there with these definitions…

This is a good question, it's really taken me time to respond to. If it did "exist" it would then no longer be a thought, it would be seen, experienced directly. After coming off the effects of a substance, would you say the little green men are real, can they be found?

Imagine a little green man for a moment. Let your thoughts paint a very detailed picture. Now, can you reach out and shake his hand with your real, physical hand? You can also imagine shaking his hand with your imagined hand, right? Do you see the distinction between shaking his hand with your imagined hand and shaking with your real hand? So, surely if you saw the real Nessy, it would look a little different than how you imagined it.

This is about as conceptual and theoretical as we need to get. It's good to understand it intellectually, but the mind will always to try define this and make sense of this and it isn't possible. All you need to be concerned with is whether you can see or experience "I" in any way other than in a thought. We can't know whether it exists or doesn't exist, but we can know that we can't see it anywhere.

Since it never was there, it can’t really stop being there in that sense. I suspect thoughts will be popping up about “I” for some time if not forever (my this or that, I did this or that etc.). I just won’t believe them anymore. And emotional reactivity hasn’t completely stopped so I guess there are still layers to peel off in there.

So at this point, you don't believe your thoughts about I/me? Don't expect emotional reactivity to stop, it may even increase when there is no longer a believed "self" that manages emotions, reactions, etc. This isn't a problem and can be looked into/worked with after LU.

I would like to start in a new direction. What is an emotion?

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

Good observation there. So what makes a sensation in the throat or stomach area a "me"? Why isn't a sensation in your toe associated with me, or the saliva in your mouth?

Nothing makes it “me”, it’s just a sensation. It just seems to activate e.g. when the “I” is addressed. And now I’m thinking again. Facepalm. And I don’t know what to say to saliva and toe thing. They don’t seem to be activated in the same situation. But they could be associated with the “I” as well as anything really.

Great job. Keep looking for the real "I". As you said, thoughts of it are endless but the question remains: Is a thought of me, a me?

No, ofcourse not, thoughts are just thoughts, no matter the content.

This is a good question, it's really taken me time to respond to. If it did "exist" it would then no longer be a thought, it would be seen, experienced directly. After coming off the effects of a substance, would you say the little green men are real, can they be found?

Probably they couldn’t be found. Just saying that ANY direct experience is as valid as another, right? No matter the content? If someone hears, sees and touches angels, I can’t really prove that he/she is under an illusion anymore than I am, experiencing a table and a pair of headphones. I’m not sure if I’m making any point (or sense) here :) or if it matters. No green men in my direct experience for the time being.

Imagine a little green man for a moment. Let your thoughts paint a very detailed picture. Now, can you reach out and shake his hand with your real, physical hand? You can also imagine shaking his hand with your imagined hand, right? Do you see the distinction between shaking his hand with your imagined hand and shaking with your real hand? So, surely if you saw the real Nessy, it would look a little different than how you imagined it.

Yes the difference is pretty clear. And you’re probably right - perhaps Nessie is dressed like a santa claus and roars massive HO-HO’s. Worst joke ever. Facepalm 2.

This is about as conceptual and theoretical as we need to get. It's good to understand it intellectually, but the mind will always to try define this and make sense of this and it isn't possible. All you need to be concerned with is whether you can see or experience "I" in any way other than in a thought. We can't know whether it exists or doesn't exist, but we can know that we can't see it anywhere.

Yep, I get theoretical easily. And can’t find “me”, no matter what I do or where I look. Just a thought unquestioned for decades. Silly me. Facepalm again.

So at this point, you don't believe your thoughts about I/me? Don't expect emotional reactivity to stop, it may even increase when there is no longer a believed "self" that manages emotions, reactions, etc. This isn't a problem and can be looked into/worked with after LU.

No, I don’t believe the thoughts about “me” in the way I once did. I just see them as thoughts. Sometimes I do get stuck on a thought stream but once I get out, it’s all clear again. It’s a phase I guess (oops… expectation once again).

I would like to start in a new direction. What is an emotion?

Ah, the new age of LU - I must be progressing :) emotion is a label given to a sensation in the body.

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Thanks for your answers! This is all sounding very good to me. It seems I is less and less believable?

Ah, the new age of LU - I must be progressing :) emotion is a label given to a sensation in the body.

Bingo! Is there a you that gives it a label? What gives a label?

I have a fun exercise that perhaps will clear up some of what you wrote about. In short, I see your point but don't think it's going to be helpful for this. So:

Look at an object(s) in the room. Hold your hand up and cover an object. Notice how thoughts may say there is an object hidden behind that hand. Now observe how this is only a story, it isn't seen.

Any unknown is always a story. Thoughts fill in the "gaps" of what we don't directly perceive.

So at this point is there any lingering doubt you would like to look into? Any pocket that the self is hiding?

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

Thanks for your answers! This is all sounding very good to me. It seems I is less and less believable?

Yes, that’s how it seems. Can’t find it so why believe in it?

Bingo! Is there a you that gives it a label? What gives a label?

There’s no me. Labels are given. Seems to happen on autopilot. Can’t say what the labelling machine is since for example the mind can’t be directly experienced.

Look at an object(s) in the room. Hold your hand up and cover an object. Notice how thoughts may say there is an object hidden behind that hand. Now observe how this is only a story, it isn't seen.

Any unknown is always a story. Thoughts fill in the "gaps" of what we don't directly perceive.

Yup, can’t argue with that.

So at this point is there any lingering doubt you would like to look into? Any pocket that the self is hiding?

Not anything in particular comes to mind. Emotional reactivity may go on, hopefully something relieving happens in that department but I’m not assuming anything. Chop wood, carry water. A thought came - perhaps it could be said that the “I” points to the reference point coming from the direction of the body that is called ‘Samu’. Instead of calling the people of earth bodies 1 through 7,000,000,000 it’s more practical to give names and use the word “I” to point out which body is communicating. Actually it would be better to use the name given to the body, since there actually is a body that can be experienced. Still this is a bit tricky, since the “I” can point to any of the 7 billion bodies. And I bet there are many Samu’s as well. So the number thing would actually be the best but it’s a bit hard on the ones who have to spend a minute pronouncing their huge number.

So, “I” = “Samu” = an individual body that is experienced and was given a label. Is there something hiding here that I’m not seeing? Since I’m unsure if I’ve made the trip, perhaps I haven’t. How could I evaluate that? Or is there something we should still look at? Time? Location? Let me know my spiritual Sherpa! :)

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Does it seem that effort is required to not believe in "I"? Or is it more that it just doesn't make sense?

So, “I” = “Samu” = an individual body that is experienced and was given a label. Is there something hiding here that I’m not seeing? Since I’m unsure if I’ve made the trip, perhaps I haven’t. How could I evaluate that? Or is there something we should still look at? Time? Location? Let me know my spiritual Sherpa! :)

Nope! It is definitely easier to use names to refer to each other than very very long numbers. It won't hurt to wait on letting yourself on the hook and really looking.

Perhaps I can help with evaluating this by poking around a little bit. Take note of anything that comes up in response to these questions.

-Is there an I? What about a witness?
-Is there a feeler of feelings?
-Is there a thinker of thoughts?
-What gives the individual body the label "Samu"?
-What do 'you' need to do/make happen, and what happens on it's own?
-Does it feel like "I" disappears when looked for? Is there a feeling that "something is here"?

How about time? Is there a past and a future, and a present moment? How fast does the present moment move? Exactly when does the past become present and the present become future?

Hug,
Wesley