Ready to dive in...

[ixturtle]

Intended to respond to this earlier but the day got away from me.

Spent the day with a little less overt "looking" and just letting this all be, "opening to the possibility" as Eloratea said. There was a brief moment this afternoon when, not right there but more like from around the corner, I could sense the freedom of not holding everything (what happened once, what's happening now, what might happen etc.) so tightly. There was a momentary sense of letting myself "off the hook"-- not in an irresponsible way, just in a not needing to cover up and micro-manage and control sort of way. The contrast of that lightness relative to being the thinker/doer/experiencer (manager, controller, director, protector, peacemaker, etc.) was obvious.

The possibility of just "thinking/doing/experiencing" feels a lot less exhausting for sure. The "thinking" seems a bit more accessible given years of watching my mind think-- strange that this impersonal aspect of mind never truly made it off the cushion (despite lots of teachings/readings/discussion to that effect). The "doing" still befuddles me-- if I'm vigilant I can catch a glimpse of it-- but then life happens and I get totally identified with what "I" am doing. But then "experiencing"? There's such a strong sense that at THE VERY LEAST, "I'm" experiencing this life. In other words, identifying as the "witness" or even just as awareness itself.

Anyway, these are "my thoughts" for the eve.
Love love,
ix

[Eloratea]

The "doing" still befuddles me-- if I'm vigilant I can catch a glimpse of it-- but then life happens and I get totally identified with what "I" am doing.

Is there you to get identified, or identification happens?
It is just thoughts. And you don't need to believe in them. This is important!

But then "experiencing"? There's such a strong sense that at THE VERY LEAST, "I'm" experiencing this life. In other words, identifying as the "witness" or even just as awareness itself.

Could you describe in this very moment how your actual experience looks like? What is happening? Is there you somewhere?

Love.

[ixturtle]

Could you describe in this very moment how your actual experience looks like? What is happening? Is there you somewhere?

hands resting on keyboard. hissing sound from stove-- some attention there with the thought, "careful not to burn it". sit bones on chair, legs crossed, one foot on floor. sound of pecking at window (emu). sour taste in mouth. slight heaviness at chest. fingers typing as mind scans body. some tightness in lower back. distant sound of car. thought arises, "need to check the stove. [checking of stove happens, some stirring, tasting, futzing happens, then return to computer.] slight breeze through window. feeling long hair resting on arms. thoughts like, "is this what eloratea wants?" appear. swallow. scratch head. deeper breath... scratch again. just sitting. just typing. thought appears, "waiting for epiphany, clarity, "seeing" but i still don't see." another thought arises, "is there a "me" here?" and another: "yes, but that too is a thought. without the labels "I" or "me" then it's all just happening..."

and another: "when eloratea says:

It is just thoughts. And you don't need to believe in them. This is important!

, the thought arises that this implies that experience is subject to belief and perhaps there's no truth at all-- self, no self-- depends on belief. No self appears less painful, but is it just a saner choice or is it the truth? I'm actually fine with it being a saner choice, but my sense is that "clear seeing of the truth" is what's necessary to derail the self programming. hmmmm....

thoughts arises that i wish i could shut the mind up more than ever (or rather, mind wishes mind would shut up), but also recall thinking today (thoughts about thoughts) that if no self was always true, then nothing needs to change.

peace,
ix

[Cam-RT]

clarity, "seeing" but i still don't see." another thought arises, "is there a "me" here?" and another: "yes, but that too is a thought. without the labels "I" or "me" then it's all just happening..."

Dump the thoughts...they're distractions. What's driving these thoughts?
Take a deep breath and LOOK at what is behind all this buzzing around your head...

the thought arises that this implies that experience is subject to belief and perhaps there's no truth at all-- self, no self-- depends on belief.

Everything we know, no matter how sure we are, is really just Belief, and ALL beliefs are self limiting, and serve to reduce the truly infinite to falsely finite...

[ixturtle]

Dump the thoughts...they're distractions. What's driving these thoughts?
Take a deep breath and LOOK at what is behind all this buzzing around your head...

What's driving these thoughts is a belief that "I" can think my way through to clarity (safety/happiness), which I recognize is what's driving the whole illusion to begin with. In one sense this process has had the adverse effect of activating my thinking mind in slightly overwhelming ways. HOWEVER, the up side is-- I seem to notice or register something new every day -- a precious gift-- and I'm infinitely grateful for the support you all have given. In small ways I'm starting to "get" it-- how absurd my endless machinations of self are-- which is not the same as "seeing" it but does offer a bit of space/light.

Deep breath. Looking...

[Eloratea]

hi ix,
keep digging what is true :)

Watch the simple activities; hearing of sounds - is there a hear-er controlling the process, or it is just hearing arising due to the combination of various facts?
Is there a breather right now, orchestrating inhale and exhale of the air, or it is simply breathing?

[Cam-RT]

What's driving these thoughts is a belief that "I" can think my way through to clarity (safety/happiness), which I recognize is what's driving the whole illusion to begin with.

"IT'S" already there...The "clarity (safety/happiness)", push through the thoughts you don't have to think JUST LOOK!!

[ixturtle]

Without thoughts, there's just being here, breathing, typing. Clear.
Without thoughts, there's no fear. Safe.
Without thoughts, there's nothing wrong. Happy.

And actually, it's not "without thought", it's "without believing in thoughts." Yes? Like Eloratea said.

BTW, sometimes on this site I feel like the word "LOOK!!!" is in a language I've only just begun to learn, so following the instruction leaves me feeling like maybe I'm "looking" and maybe I'm not. But of course this is A THOUGHT (with no shortage of "me"s and "I"s in it), without which I am obviously clear, safe and happy.

Off to take a walk... back soon.
ix.

[ixturtle]

ps. just noticed the "I" in "without which I am obviously clear, safe and happy." ARGG! but yes, clarity, safety and happiness are here.

[Cam-RT]

" You"( Your mind) are the sky...Everything else is just the weather. ;^)

[Derek]

Hi, Nueve,

What we call "looking" has no special meaning. It's like if you have a cup in front of you. You can produce a theory of cups and tell us all about your theory -- or, you can simply look at the cup and see how it is.

There's no need to be afraid of the word "I". We're not trying to eliminate it from our vocabularies. What we're trying to do is see how this word tricks us into believing it points to a solid, persistent, continuous thing.

So take a look at this word "I". A word like "cup" points to a real thing that persists from moment to moment. But what about the word "I"? LOOK and see if it refers to anything solid and separate. Does it?

Derek.

[Eloratea]

Hi ix,

I wanted to share with you few more thoughts on "cup".
http://eloratea.blogspot.com/

:)

[ixturtle]

Ha ha! Feeling the 3 on 1 here... in a good way. :-)

One thing I keep coming back to is an earlier question from this string: what is real vs. imagined. This distinction has been really helpful-- seems so obvious and not quite sure how I've missed it all these years, even with numerous teachers pointing to it.

With Derek's cup-- it's obvious: "real" (at least in our basic negotiating the world sense).

And yesterday I kept seeing the freedom of returning to what's "real." I was sitting in a tipi and there was a huge gust of wind and normally that would freak me out a bit, but I sat there looking at all the poles shake in a new way, which is to say, matter of factly and without any fear. What was happening was what was happening, that's all: clarity. I could also see that without "the imagined," I was quite safe (and also figured that if the body/mind wasn't actually safe, there would be instinctual running out of the tipi regardless of whatever thoughts were going on). And for a brief moment I also saw that even if my physical body was squashed by a tipi pole, life was still happening. These last two bits were thoughts, but illuminating ones nevertheless. In any case, when I stuck with what was "real", there was nothing wrong: happy.

So Derek: No, I can't point to anything that is a real "I" that is outside of a thought. It's funny then that the sense of I still persists. I can confirm in seeing a cup that there IS a cup. If I were confirming that there were "no cup," however, I would keep looking all around the room to be sure, and even then I wouldn't be positive. Is this natural? Do you simply keep checking until you're sure? Or is it really just one "seeing"? In other words, am I still caught in mind games?

Also, this real vs. imagined seems clear when I'm alone. As soon as my partner walks into the room, it all gets muddled and I have no idea what's what.

Cam-RT: basic gist of sky/weather is clear but was surprised that you called "mind" the sky. Semantics perhaps, and inspires more theoretical thoughts, so probably best for me not to go there.
Eloratea: Thank you for the link!

[Derek]

Hi, Nueve,

I'm glad you're enjoying the three-on-one approach.

So you've seen that "I" is just a word, unlike the word "cup," which refers to a real and solid thing.

Now what's left is a "sense" of self.

You mentioned the other day that this sense of self was made up of sensations around the forehead, eyes, and cheeks.

First question: Is this supposed self, i.e. these sensations you notice, as solid and persistent as a real cup?

Second question: If the supposed self can be observed, then what is it (if anything) that is aware of this supposed self?

Derek.

[ixturtle]

You mentioned the other day that this sense of self was made up of sensations around the forehead, eyes, and cheeks.First question: Is this supposed self, i.e. these sensations you notice, as solid and persistent as a real cup?

Hmmm-- that's funny. When you asked me to find the "my" in "my breathing", I noticed for the first time ever (!) that my awareness seems to jump from the experience itself to my head in a quick flash. This is definitely true with words like "my" but it appears to be true with any labels at all. The realization that every label takes me away from experience was a doozy. However, when I say "sense of self" I most often refer to a sense of contraction at the heart. And no, these sensations are decidedly not as solid and persistent as a real cup. They morph, move about, change in intensity, and sometimes I don't notice them at all. So how on earth could this be "me"?

Imagined thoughts and morphing sensations... doesn't add up to much does it?

Second question: If the supposed self can be observed, then what is it (if anything) that is aware of this supposed self?

This questions sends my head in a tail spin. All this past year I've found tremendous relief in just "relaxing as awareness". Which is why earlier in this string I wondered about having to at least identify with awareness? Oy! When I feel the sense of self at the heart, "I" am aware of it. "I" is obviously just a thought. So then awareness just happens?