unfolding universe

[harry44]

Amrita:

I feel I need to see it in a different light or from a different perspective to really embrace illusion as fact.
Can you say a bit more about the shift that needs to happen for you to see through the illusion of self?

As stated before, I know it is an illusion, yet I still use it every day, so I find that perplexing. I know when a question is presented and one has looked at and rejected everything that doesn't fit, then when that one question is presented the answer unfolds. This is what I mean by realizing something from a different perspective, that is, when the brain has no answer an insight pops in. Insights as opposed to intuitions have a greater tendency to change behavior. If one imagined a ball with, say, four lines going through it, that would be 8 lines sticking out. Through questioning a detail would be eliminated or a line lost until finally a question would be asked which had no answer, then suddenly the whole thing would appear and one would see its Truth. So for me, knowing something and being it involve elimination. The mind has to work itself down to the Truth of it.

Can you also say a bit about what the illusion is? Do you mean seeing that self is an illusion or that thought itself is the illusion? Sorry for asking this but I am a bit unclear with your answer and its good to clarify what we are speaking about. In this inquiry we are looking to see that the "self" or "I" does not exist in reality but only in beliefs or imagination if that makes sense.

So, What is the illusion? Is it thought or self or both? Well the way I see it, self is a thought, so self is an illusion because it identifies with a thought. Now is thought itself an illusion? We have this instant and a thought arises, there is no self yet as nothing has been identified or recognized; still is the original thought an illusion as it just flows through awareness. I don't know. I see how identification is an illusion, that is clearly seen. I can see the identification part but I can't see the original thought because, I believe, it's also in the moment.

Could you also say a bit about not being as "authentic" as you would like in this inquiry? What would being more "authentic" feel like? What is stopping you being authentic?

I am authentic; I just looked at myself in total, spurred by the speech, and saw how some habits were getting in the way of my goals. It brought to mind something which I have been looking at regarding what it means to be spiritual in this time. Asking how do I present myself to others, what values do I project, how do I handle different points of view without being judgemental. So as I question myself and others I want to offer alternative points of view without imposing, rather showing respect while offering alternative points of view.

Peace and love Harry

[amrita]

Hi Harry,

Thanks for your answer on the nature of illusion. It helps me be clearer on where you are coming from.

Let's move on and focus on experience in the here and now. As you have said, all there is in the here and now. This means that if the self exists it must exist in the here and now. Does that make any sense to you?

Let's focus on the sense of hearing or sounds. if you close your eyes and focus on any sound can you find a "self" that is hearing the sound or is there just the sound itself arising within awareness?

With your eyes closed can you say that the sounds are arising outside of you or are they inside you? Or are there just sounds arising and passing?

Can you say whether the sounds belong to you or are they just sounds?

Best wishes

amrita

[harry44]

Amrita:

Let's move on and focus on experience in the here and now. As you have said, all there is in the here and now. This means that if the self exists it must exist in the here and now. Does that make any sense to you?

Amrita, I don't I ever said the self existed except as an after thought. We have what is or here and now, the self would exist only if it identifies with something it objectifies. IN the here and now there is nothing; only when we objectify something does it exist; for it to exist something needs to do it; that would be a self. ( Very nice )

Let's focus on the sense of hearing or sounds. if you close your eyes and focus on any sound can you find a "self" that is hearing the sound or is there just the sound itself arising within awareness?

Having done this before, I knew the answer, however it needed to be experiencial to say it now. Doing this, I see in myself after something has been experienced I often take the answer, but then don't bother reliving the experience. No self, just sound arising," hearing is ", nothing objectifies it.

With your eyes closed can you say that the sounds are arising outside of you or are they inside you? Or are there just sounds arising and passing?

The sounds just are...,..the urge is to listen, but then one needs a listener'......sounds just rise and fall

Can you say whether the sounds belong to you or are they just sounds?

No listener....just sounds.
Peace and love, Harry


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[amrita]

Hi Harry,

That is a great observation that sounds "just are" and sounds "just rise and fall". In this inquiry we keep lookng into the experience of the here and now for any sign of a seperate self or perceiver until we are fully clear that the self or I does not exist. We can go through each sense (hearing, seeing, touching etc) until we are clear that sounds, images and sensations arise without the need for a self or I. The practice is to keep bringing attention to the here and now of experience and to pay attention to what is actually happening rather than becoming lost in thoughts or thinking.

Having gone through hearing and sounds lets look at seeing and what is seen. If you look at any object can you find a "seer" seperate from the object that is being looked at?

Take any object in your room (e.g. guitar, statue, cupboard etc) and describe what is seen. Is there a seperate seer or perciever from what is seen?

Likewise, in what is seen, can you say the images belong to you or there simply images (colours and shapes)?

This is an experiential practice rather than a philosophical exercise if that makes sense.

Peace and love to you too!

amrita

[harry44]

Amrita:

Hi: On Monday's myself and 5 other coaches have a Skype call. Today I asked each person to explain the illusion in their own words, I started. The person after me began his explanation and I saw very clearly ,what is, is under thought. It just jumped out at me, so tonight is very clear.

Having gone through hearing and sounds lets look at seeing and what is seen. If you look at any object can you find a "seer" separate from the object that is being looked at?

No separate seer, wherever the gaze fell, there was just observation but no observer. Am I right here: realizing now there is a space or a gap between what is seen and then a thought or recognition. There is a space between the two, it is not immediate: seeing and then naming; this is; there is seeing, a space, and then naming. I got this when I realized, what is, and then thought is over it: in other words I saw the totality of what is and its identification comes after, and that to me implies a space.

Take any object in your room (e.g. guitar, statue, cupboard etc) and describe what is seen. Is there a separate seer or perceiver from what is seen?

As long as what is seen is not objectified there is no preceiver.

Likewise, in what is seen, can you say the images belong to you or there simply images (colours and shapes)?

This is really amazing, realizing there is nothing here to receive it, regardless of how often one practices. Also feelings are felt, vibration

This is an experiential practice rather than a philosophical exercise if that makes sense.

Yes One realizes this and is grateful for it, however, being a thinker I also look to understand it. I have gotten hung up here or lost in explanation, I am over that now realizing it all lies in experience, as life is experience, talking about is an addon.

Peace and love, Harry

[amrita]

Hey Harry,

This line from your answer jumped out at me so I just wanted to this is really great :)

I saw very clearly ,what is, is under thought. It just jumped out at me, so tonight is very clear.

Lets look at sensations now. Sensations are a big one for people to see through as they mistakenly identify the sensations as self or believe the sensations "belong" to them in some way.

If you look at sensations can you find any sign of self or I in those sensations?

Can you say the sensations belong to you or are there just sensations arising and falling?

Is there a self necessary for sensations to arise or can they just arise within the openess of experience?

Can you find any self or I that percieves or senses the sensations or are there simply sensations?

I love your observation by the way that life is what is happening and talking (or thinking) about it is an add on!

Peace and love

amrita

[harry44]

Amrita:

If you look at sensations can you find any sign of self or I in those sensations?

When I 1st started meditating, investigating, questioning, I found many sensations occurring especially in the head, a pressure developed and as it was associated with an insight I mistakenly focused on this pressure which greatly intensified. After a while I quit everything for a number of years. It took a long time figuring out what was happening and how I had inadvertently got the wrong message about what exactly focusing was all about. Again I am meditating, focusing and questioning, however now one realizes when pressure occurs all one needs to do is change focus to center or back to attention, in this, what arises, falls back again like a wave falling back to its source.

Can you say the sensations belong to you or are there just sensations arising and falling?

The temptation is to say they belong, knowing this is a thought frees any association and the sensation moves on through.


Is there a self necessary for sensations to arise or can they just arise within the openness of experience?

In awareness sensations arise and fall, as long as there is nothing there saying this is that, then what would be the point of a self when its nature is only about identification. +

Can you find any self or I that perceives or senses the sensations or are there simply sensations?

They are sensations unique in their expression within awareness.

Peace and love
Harry

[amrita]

Hi,

It sounds like you are very near to seeing through the illusion of self. When you say,

The temptation is to say they belong, knowing this is a thought frees any association and the sensation moves on through.

Can you say exactly what this temptation is? Is it a labelling thought or an interpretation? Or is it a sensation? What is is that sticks to sensations and prevents them from moving on through as you put it?

What does life feel like without any self in the way to push against or resist experience?

Can you be open to the waves of sensations rising and falling without any need to grab hold of them or resist them?

Best wishes

Amrita

[harry44]

Amrita:

Can you say exactly what this temptation is? Is it a labelling thought or an interpretation? Or is it a sensation? What is is that sticks to sensations and prevents them from moving on through as you put it?

The temptation is mostly a habit, it sort of a believed built in behavior, and that't OK in that, seeing it is a movement back to attention. There's a something, don't know what it is, it is not always there though, sometimes movement or vibration is seen throughout, it just comes. The other evening as I was walking my dog, the dog is free as the place is quite a few acres, we just walk together, out of the corner of my eye everything was moving, if I looked straight things were still, but looking off to either side, everything, the trees, earth, grasses, air, sky, all was moving, even my dog. Sensations happen sometimes frequently, and other times not. I imagine as one becomes more comfortable in attention then sensations will increase. I think before I was drawn to labeling, and I've become aware of labeling in many things, however, now it's recognized, not labeled, and released.

What does life feel like without any self in the way to push against or resist experience?

It's freeing, things are taken in without commit, so one might say, acceptance. The mind is relaxed and open, open to whatever presents. Senses are heightened, I've always had heightened senses, they just got covered over, so one could say it's an awakening.

Can you be open to the waves of sensations rising and falling without any need to grab hold of them or resist them?

One feels they can, I am aware of vibration quite frequently, sometimes the entire body vibrates. Once I was in a zen monastery for about 7 or 8 months and they had a big bell, a gong, which a 5 o'clock they swung a big branch, hung on chains into it producing a loud bong. I was on a hillside leaning against a large boulder, meditating, and saw waves of energy radiating out in all directions until it radiated right through me. One senses waves of sensation may be something rather like this. It's funny, I never looked at vibration as sensation and its been there all along.

Peace and love, Harry
This has been an awareness within an awareness, thank you

[amrita]

Harry,

So we have examined the senses of hearing, seeing and physical sensations without any sign of self in what is heard, what is seen and physical sensations. I know there are other senses such as taste and smell but they dont seem as primary as seeing, hearing and feeling and people dont often identify themselves with what they smell as opposed to what they feel or what they think.

Lets look at the nature of awareness. I like your phrase "an awareness within awarenss" and would like you to say a little more about what this means for you.

If we look at awareness can we say the awareness belongs to a self or an I? Isn't it just the case there is just awareness? If you sit quietly with your eyes closed can you say that awareness is you? In this awareness is there any sign of a self? If there is a sign of a self where is it exactly? In thoughts? In sensations? In awareness itself?

Best wishes

Amrita

[harry44]

Amrita:

Lets look at the nature of awareness. I like your phrase "an awareness within awareness" and would like you to say a little more about what this means for you.

Well after writing half a page in explanation and then losing it, I'm pretty sure it's well thought out. For some reason I didn't connect vibration with sensation, it was just felt as vibration. Then in awareness connecting with sensation, through question, I then realized vibration is sensation also. So I had awareness/sensation and awareness/vibration. As the understanding came within awareness; I said awareness within awareness; when in reality it is awareness/sensation occurring in different formats.

If we look at awareness can we say the awareness belongs to a self or an I? Isn't it just the case there is just awareness? If you sit quietly with your eyes closed can you say that awareness is you? In this awareness is there any sign of a self? If there is a sign of a self where is it exactly? In thoughts? In sensations? In awareness itself?


Awareness lies by itself, there is no me or self or I in awareness; with eyes closed there is just vastness, no top or bottom or sides; sensations pass through and often a sense of deep unfathomable love permeates all the spacious there ever was, is or will be.

Peace and love, Harry

[harry44]

Amrita:

Hope the last answer went through, well let me know & I'll redo. Regarding my answer about awareness: it is not really awareness and sensation as being different they actually occur as one. There is no differentiating one from the other.

Peace and love harry

[amrita]

Hi,

It sounds like you are seeing through the illusion and are more able to stay with your direct experience of the here and now. Is that right?

Lets look at the area of choice and free will.

Is there a "Self" that chooses?

How do "decisions" come about?

Is a self necessary for things to happen or do things just happen?

Take some time and "look" into all the micro-decisions arise within your day i.e what clothes you choose to wear, what food you eat, what activities you spend your time engaging with. Is there a self or I behind any of those decisions or are they all simply arising?

love

amrita

[harry44]

Amrita:

It sounds like you are seeing through the illusion and are more able to stay with your direct experience of the here and now. Is that right?

Yes I feel this is true, regarding actions, I just do things without thinking about them, no brooding or oh' poor me thoughts, in fact thinking is not happening so much anymore. I fine I am in vibration more often, in other words aware of it more, and empathy is present quite frequently. Life is brighter and understanding sees a bigger picture.

Lets look at the area of choice and free will.

Is there a "Self" that chooses?

Sometimes this does happen, not so frequently. As I'm starting a 1000 mile drive tomorrow I will look at free will and self. Awareness arrives, then it leaves and a thought is present, then I'm aware, it kind of goes back and forth. I;m in action doing things usually without thinking about extranous things, focused.

How do "decisions" come about?

Decisions often,mostly just arrive, I still do think about them sometimes, however, mostly I just act.

Is a self necessary for things to happen or do things just happen?

They mostly just happen, so no self is necessary.

Take some time and "look" into all the micro-decisions arise within your day i.e what clothes you choose to wear, what food you eat, what activities you spend your time engaging with. Is there a self or I behind any of those decisions or are they all simply arising?

I will look at these more closely along my drive, however, as of now, no self or I arriving as director. Mostly I just listen, one listen to the whole statement and if asked will respond, the need to assert self seems to have dissipated.

Amrita, I will be gone for two days before I can write again, I will examine free will on the drive, but at present it's not found, or in awareness it is not there, now I would say free will and thought go together; awareness no free will as it is not needed, there is just action here.

So let's say from Wednesday on, off Monday and Tuesday.

Peace and love , Harry

[amrita]

Happy driving. Stay safe

amrita