Orion's

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Amarti
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Orion's

Postby Amarti » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:49 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
We are born free of concepts and ideas. It is through time, parents, environment and society that we develop and create the thought of "self". After the self is deeply rooted within our system we then become a separate entity away from the rest of the world. Suffering plagues our system therefore awareness becomes an un reachable goal.

What are you looking for at LU?
If possible, to help others liberate themselfs from the chains of suffering and help this world reach a new level of consciousness. This liberated level would probably be the last hope we have as humans to avoid the self destruction of life as we know it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Confirm my level of awareness as I see it today. There are many ways to open our minds, however a guided conversation with a true and expirience guide will be most helpful to reaffirm the clarity of your mind. At the same time I consider the role of the guide a very delicate one. Providing the wrong guidance a guide can catapult the aspirant to years of confusion and misunderstanding.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
My questioning regarding what is life and who we really are as humans started at a very early age, perhaps 15 or 16? Read many books on spiritual practices since then. My inquire and practice continue with "TM", Buddhism, hypnosis, Reki, yoga, helping others through crisis intervention, hospice, Vipassana, Zen Buddhism and practice for several years at their monasteries, lost my daughter when she was 20, and after reading your books I feel like I have open and finally cleared the mind! Now this body is 63, a very long trip but I think it was well worth it. With my wife of 40 years of marriage and my son, I don't regret any minute of my past expirience and feel very happy and content.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?:
11

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Re: Orion's

Postby pregunta » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:37 pm

Hi Amarti,

my name is Karin and we can talk here if you like, ... thanks for your thoughtful introduction ...

What are you looking for at LU?
If possible, to help others liberate themselfs from the chains of suffering and help this world reach a new level of consciousness. This liberated level would probably be the last hope we have as humans to avoid the self destruction of life as we know it.

Awesome. LU is always looking for dedicated guides, and guiding itself is a wonderful tool to deepen your own clarity.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Confirm my level of awareness as I see it today. There are many ways to open our minds, however a guided conversation with a true and expirience guide will be most helpful to reaffirm the clarity of your mind. At the same time I consider the role of the guide a very delicate one. Providing the wrong guidance a guide can catapult the aspirant to years of confusion and misunderstanding.

I hope that there will be a lot of clarity instead of confusion and misunderstanding after our conversation ;))


Tell me about what happened when you were working with those books.
In which ways did your perspective of the world change? How is everyday life perceived these days?


Have a good day! Karin

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Amarti
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Re: Orion's

Postby Amarti » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:49 am

After I started reading your books it was like I had finally found that the author of the books for LU is a true and liberated human being that can see clear as day light! My intuition was telling me to follow and observed the interactions taking place between "Ilona" and the individuals participating in her books and closely observing her recommended words to bring awerness to the participants. The next thing that happen while inmerse in one of the dialogs in the book, is like I have turn my head around and to my surprise I see my "ego, my false I, or small self" caught in the act of trying to continue to give directions or orders to whom? Realizing that there was no one to give directions to because I was no longer part of that game. So then I started smiling and laughfing with a big sense of releave, and very deep relaxtion. I had these type of "kenshos" before but I really needed this last one to finally push me over the edge!!! Thanks Ilona for finally disolving my very last bit of ignorance. Perhaps I have to consider my awekining as very very gradual over the years. I have to consider myself a happy person, I enjoy a good sense of humor, never depressed and always willing to help others. My family life es outstanding amd so are my circle of friends. I feel very lucky to be alive and enourmosly grateful to be part of these universe!!!!!! and cannot really ask for more. 😃

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Re: Orion's

Postby pregunta » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:34 pm

Wow... what a beautiful story, Amarti!

The next thing that happen while inmerse in one of the dialogs in the book, is like I have turn my head around and to my surprise I see my "ego, my false I, or small self" caught in the act of trying to continue to give directions or orders to whom?

Realizing that there was no one to give directions to because I was no longer part of that game. So then I started smiling and laughfing with a big sense of releave, and very deep relaxtion. I had these type of "kenshos" before but I really needed this last one to finally push me over the edge!!! Thanks Ilona for finally disolving my very last bit of ignorance.

How much time has passed since you have been pushed over the edge? Is there not even a slight sense that there is anything still missing?

What does the ego, your false I, or small self consist of? How is it constructed?

Looking forward to your answers!




Please don't be irritated, when you have seen an earlier post being deleted. We just decided to change the way to carry on :))

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Re: Orion's

Postby Amarti » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:43 pm

How much time has passed since you have been pushed over the edge?

It could be months or years I don't recall. Like I said before things have been changing in small increments over time. Small events and big events had pushed me over the edge over time, e.g. two times in the last few years I had near death experiences, one a massive heart attack and the second a pulmonary infection considering the doctors gave up on me saying they saw no hope of me surviving, so I started to say goodbye to my love ones and friends, in the last minute I again recover from it, and the first one happen many years before these two events, with the anexpected death of my 20 year old daughter her death also push me over the edge...almost to insanity!

Is there not even a slight sense that there is anything still missing?

No,.... I feel or see things for what they are and feel at peace, happy and content. No regrets or desires to push for anything at all! The mind feels at peace for whatever good or bad comes along. Such is life and thats the way it is! Thankful that I am still here in this life form to share and experience life as it is. No.....I don't ask for more, feel like this body and mind are part of everything. No ego or I inside of me that wants to govern or give directions....there is no inside or outside,....life just flows in front of my eyes!!!


What does the ego, your false I, or small self consist of? How is it constructed?

The way I see it is just an illusion or thought product of our small mind. Nothing else and when the time is ripe it just disappears....puff!! and is gone for ever. This is what I perceive when I was readying the book as I mentioned before.

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Re: Orion's

Postby pregunta » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:27 pm

Thank you for your getting more into detail ... you really seem to have grown into the presence you are experiencing now.
The way I see it is just an illusion or thought product of our small mind. Nothing else and when the time is ripe it just disappears....puff!! and is gone for ever. This is what I perceive when I was readying the book as I mentioned before.

Wow, seems like the dialogs really gave you the last push that was needed :))

Can I do anything more for you, anything else you would like to explore, before I give you the final questions?

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Re: Orion's

Postby Amarti » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:07 pm

Thank you Karin, for your patience with me and for taking the time to read all those events from my distant past. I am ready for your final questions!
Thanks again!
Amarti

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Re: Orion's

Postby pregunta » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:35 pm

Thank you Karin, for your patience with me and for taking the time to read all those events from my distant past. I am ready for your final questions!
No patience needed ... It's been my pleasure.

Here are the final questions.
Enjoy!

1) Was ‘me’/‘myself’ ever a living being that moves, speaks or thinks?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of ‘me’/‘myself’ is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was key in seeing this?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Does ‘me’/‘myself’ make things happen? Is ‘me’/‘myself’ in control of anything? How does it work? What is ‘me’/‘myself’ responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

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Re: Orion's

Postby Amarti » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:54 am

1) Was ‘me’/‘myself’ ever a living being that moves, speaks or thinks?

Before we are awake, yes it "appears" that way, however after we awake to the present moment, we realize that we have been in a dream. We have giving complete trust and control to this false illusory self that we created long ago.


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of ‘me’/‘myself’ is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of "me/myself" perhaps gets started as a small part of a biological instinct of natural preservation for our own species, however as we become older and move on with our own life, we continue to add more and more responsibilities to it, negating our natural born state of freedom. It is true that we have to learn many skills in order to survive as humans and the brain absorbs an amazing amount of information to satisfy the need to survive. However, we continue to delegate all control and decision making to this entity called "me/myself". The last thing we see is that we have slaved the body and mind to this false entity, we alienate our true being, we feel we are separate from nature, separate from the outside world. Suffering becomes the norm, considering that we will never be able to satisfy the demands of our created "Ego". We consider our skin encapsulated ego the "norm", we prove it every day with all daily activities and interactions with other humans. This is the reason while we are asleep we don't accept any form of "true freedom", years and years of conditioning will continue to prove that it is not possible or that it doesn't belong to this life form.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Here I can add all kinds of nice words and phrases to describe this freedom...e.g. peace, tranquility, clarity of mind, no ego traps, life flows, horizon is always expanding in all directions, quietness, stillness, good or bad is no longer an issue, an enormous amount of energy trying to satisfy the ego is no longer needed. It also feels like I am "new" to this, just like when you just woke up from a dream, you then rub your eyes, smile and then "see things for the first time". Within the last few days I am feeling more normal again, however now I realize something big and internal change my perspective and consider that I can no longer go back to the same "old self" ever again!

4) What was key in seeing this?

As far as I can remember, I always felt that there was more to life, then just what it appears on the surface. The more I got interested in these type of topics the more I became attracted to them, just like a magnet. Years ago, I promise myself that if others were able to "see or become awake" why not me? Tenacity, persistence, never giving up, consistency, asking always questions and never satisfy with plain answers that I cannot very myself, became my norm. I was never able to follow any master's indoctrination. I just refuse to submit or promise alliance to any master or sacred books. Perhaps, this is the main reason why I found in your group, total freedom, with no strings attached.


5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Does ‘me’/‘myself’ make things happen? Is ‘me’/‘myself’ in control of anything? How does it work? What is ‘me’/‘myself’ responsible for? Give examples from experience.

As I already describe above, when the "me/myself" still in control it gives the impression that this small voice inside our heads is in control making all decisions. Far from truth, this "voice" is always extracting information from was it is already recorded in the brain and giving it its own twist to satisfy its needs and justify its own existence. As we free ourselves from this illusion now events will continue to happen but the body and mind just reacts to the needs as they arise. There is no longer a judge inside our heads. Many, many condition habits or unnecessary thoughts drop by the way side, as they are no longer needed. These habits were there only to satisfy the "ego".

6) Anything to add?

Thanks again for your pointed questions, I don't know how else I would had ever awakened from my own dream!!!

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Re: Orion's

Postby pregunta » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:15 pm

Thanks for your nice and eloquent answers, Amarti,

you could probably write a wonderful book about it. The only thing is that for my taste a lot of what you are writing is a bit too smooth and too general.

You describe perfectly how this illusion stuff works but I don't find a lot of your very personal detailed experience in it. That is needed here to understand if you have really seen through the illusion and are not just having a great overall understanding about it. In your case we just cannot rely on a whole written process that has been documented in this forum.

We need to know your own direct experience.

For the following questions please use the vocabulary (when applicable) of Direct Experience for decription (e.g. I felt this sensation, picture etc. and than a thought came in, saying x) Please try to be as direct and literal as possible with your language and don't use generalizations, instead do work with personal examples as much as possible:

1) Was ‘me’/‘myself’ ever a living being that moves, speaks or thinks?

Before we are awake, yes it "appears" that way, however after we awake to the present moment, we realize that we have been in a dream. We have giving complete trust and control to this false illusory self that we created long ago.
Who is the one that created this false illusory self?
What is the rule language is playing in this process in the creation of the "I"?

The last thing we see is that we have slaved the body and mind to this false entity, we alienate our true being, we feel we are separate from nature, separate from the outside world. Suffering becomes the norm, considering that we will never be able to satisfy the demands of our created "Ego". We consider our skin encapsulated ego the "norm", we prove it every day with all daily activities and interactions with other humans. This is the reason while we are asleep we don't accept any form of "true freedom", years and years of conditioning will continue to prove that it is not possible or that it doesn't belong to this life form.
Again, who is the "we" who is letting all that happen?
How does suffering manifest itself in your experience?
What has your "life form" been constructed of?

4) What was key in seeing this?
Do you remember a certain situation, a question/exercise in the book, etc., a certain realization that gave you the last shot?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Does ‘me’/‘myself’ make things happen? Is ‘me’/‘myself’ in control of anything? How does it work? What is ‘me’/‘myself’ responsible for? Give examples from experience.

As I already describe above, when the "me/myself" still in control it gives the impression that this small voice inside our heads is in control making all decisions. Far from truth, this "voice" is always extracting information from was it is already recorded in the brain and giving it its own twist to satisfy its needs and justify its own existence.
Is there literally a voice in "your" head? In pure direct experience is there even "head"?
When you look clearly when e.g. making a grocery list. Where do the items come from? What makes you write down one or the other? Where does the belief come from, that a decision has been made?

Thanks in advance!

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Re: Orion's

Postby Amarti » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:46 pm

Hi Karin,
Thanks again for your patience with me!
I have given a lot of thought to your responses and..........
Yes, I agree with you I have been giving you very general answers and very little answers about the "I,me" stuff.
To stay focus I will continue to copy your responses, and try to answer them as I go:
________________________

Was ‘me’/‘myself’ ever a living being that moves, speaks or thinks?

The way I see it today, it is almost like not long ago, there was a "me/myself" that use to move, speak or think. Right this moment I am not sure anymore. At times I see, feel or move and some other times I am not sure any more who is doing it. Is like writing right this moment to you, it feels like the body and mind is doing it and the next moment is not there anymore.It Is like the conditioned mind is vacillating all the time between "self and no-self". I am not sure even if it is true anymore.

One thing that has caused me a lot of attachment over the years, is the fact that my profession has always been in "Science", as an Environmental Scientist, and because of this tenacious background the mind was always trying to bring facts and scientific answers to every thing (what a hindrance, I realice now!!).

--------------------

Who is the one that created this false illusory self?

NO ONE!!!!.......
--------------------
What is the rule language playing in this process in the creation of the "I"?

To sustain, to feed or to keep it alive. "Rule language" is again another thought process created by the mind.
---------------------
Again, who is the "we" who is letting all that happen?

"WE", does not exist! in the answers I gave you, I use "we" just because of the language barrier to communicate with you.

---------------------
How does suffering manifest itself in your experience?

"SUFFERING" it exists when it touches emotions, feelings or sensations, however what is there to touch if "I" doesn't exist..... there is no "I" to touch, feel or sense??? and here I am not trying to speak in generalities or copy from "others", it is just how I am reacting to the word: "Suffering"

-----------------------
What has your "life form" been constructed of?

What I meant by "life form" and I just don't know how to put it in words to you......any more...(again the scientific mind, is trying to answer......) (who then refuses to give you a scientific answer?)...sorry, I am stuck!!!! all I see here is "
"energy inside or outside of the eyes, in different forms" How do I define "energy"??? Is these apparent reality or just an illusion of the senses? perhaps I am not there yet!!! (I am still trying to be as honest and sincere with you as I can) Sorry! I know I shouldn't try to get philosophical.

----------------------
Do you remember a certain situation, a question/exercise in the book, etc., a certain realization that gave you the last shot?

Reading from the book "The Gateless Gatecrashers" the second case.... his name is "Shane" towards the end of his case, page 31, in my kindle, when Elena says: Great, Look now. Answer me this: Is there a "you" in any shape or form in reality? Shane answers: I looked and looked.....there is a body, like flesh and bones. But no owner of this stuff. Elena: Do you exist? Shane: No, there isn't anything existing, nothing there to claim its existence. Funny....nothing there to even claim it doesn't exist."

At that moment is when I was surprise...totally surprise!!!! I agree with the above dialog 100%,(very deep... deep feeling) it was like the truth was starring at my eyes, like I have been intellectualizing this for years and now it was different and real. Something dropped away, to where.... I don't know, it was spooky, surreal, later I shared this what happened with my wife.....like I have never been there before, new territory right that moment. I said: "Wow, the only way I can describe it is like if you remove a transparent glued plastic from the cover of a book.The book remains! I looked around and I still had my body, sensations and every thing, but now something has been lifted. Again trying to be as honest and truthful as I can with you. It lasted for several days, perhaps a week or more. I didn't stop smiling every day. Saying to myself....Perhaps this is what it takes to be awake....I then picked up some books from other awake individuals to see if I can agree with them on this stuff, and yes, it appears that way. (But I am sorry if I am just fooling myself or you Karin again, and perhaps I am still far away from crossing the gate! You tell me!!!)

---------------------

Is there literally a voice in "your" head? In pure direct experience is there even "head"?

Deep inside there is no voice, any where. Here, I would like to give you a direct experience, ...and now this happens frequently when I am talking to someone is like I no longer can relate to the person to whom I am talking to, it is like they are not there anymore, neither it is my body, however I know something is happening between the two of us. I then try to "shake my head" (figuratively), so they will not notice what is happening to "me". Is like I have to concentrate hard to follow what it is going on. After a moment things go back to "normal" again, and I don't have to worry about it anymore. This is something I didn't experience before.

------------------------

When you look clearly when e.g. making a grocery list. Where do the items come from? What makes you write down one or the other?

Items don't come from anywhere in particular, they just appear and are transfer to the paper. I don't feel like there is someone in charge, making any particular decisions anymore. The grocery list is just taken care off, its very natural.

--------------------------

Where does the belief come from, that a decision has been made?

The belief has no origin, the body and mind are continuously reacting to the now moment. I don't know how else to give you an answer.

--------------------------

Karin, thanks again!

pd/ Sorry for my written English, but I moved to Colombia many years ago from the USA, and now my English is a little "rusty". I noticed your Forum ID is: "Pregunta" . Are you fluent in Spanish?

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Re: Orion's

Postby pregunta » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:30 pm

Hi Amarti,

thanks for your detailed and honest answers, it is very clear to me what you are talking about, ... and yes, sometimes it also might still be a bit confusing ...
Your written English is fine, you really wouldn't want to read my written Spanish, it's totally rusted through ;))

One more question:
The way I see it today, it is almost like not long ago, there was a "me/myself" that use to move, speak or think. Right this moment I am not sure anymore. At times I see, feel or move and some other times I am not sure any more who is doing it. Is like writing right this moment to you, it feels like the body and mind is doing it and the next moment is not there anymore.It Is like the conditioned mind is vacillating all the time between "self and no-self". I am not sure even if it is true anymore.

Was there ever an I/me ruling this show? Even if it seemed this way? And it might still sometimes do?
A somebody that was in control of the situation?

And who is aware of being or not being in control?

Have a good day!

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Re: Orion's

Postby Amarti » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:06 am

Was there ever an I/me ruling this show? Even if it seemed this way? And it might still sometimes do?
A somebody that was in control of the situation?


Yes, Karin! I can give you lots of situations for when the ego was in total control before my awaken state occurred. At that time, I was totally unaware as to how the ego was running my life. To me that use to be considered "normal". Normal to be upset, unsatisfied, extremely picky, neurotic, happy at times but not in peace, etc., etc. Then after the awaken state occurred PEACE, HARMONY and LIFE began to just flow so nicely, like never before with no attachments whatsoever...... truly amazing!!! However, it was shortly after the awaken occurred that the ego showed up once more, it occurred when I least expected. The "ego" rear up its ugly head again, like if a dead corpse was trying to stand up again. It took me so by surprise that I didn't recognize what was happening for those few seconds....wow...wow... wow! It was like I was my old self again, and I didn't like it for those few seconds that it lasted!!! After this happen, thanks goodness peace and harmony return again. Now, I wonder how I lived like that for so many years before..... believe me that not, for one second, that I want to be like that chained self ever, ever again!!!

........................

And who is aware of being or not being in control?

It just doesn't concern me who is in control anymore, I just don't see anyone or anything in control. The space around is unlimited and empty. Total freedom!!! with miracle life expressions flowing every second, and this is what I was missing all my life and now I am thankful that I had woken up from that obscure dream for ever.

Thanks again,

Amarti

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Re: Orion's

Postby pregunta » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:54 pm

It just doesn't concern me who is in control anymore, I just don't see anyone or anything in control. The space around is unlimited and empty. Total freedom!!! with miracle life expressions flowing every second, and this is what I was missing all my life and now I am thankful that I had woken up from that obscure dream for ever.
Wonderful ...

I can give you lots of situations for when the ego was in total control before my awaken state occurred. At that time, I was totally unaware as to how the ego was running my life.

Well. Than can you tell me what this "I" or ego was? Could you actually find it? Out of what was it constructed?

It doesn't seem to be here anymore, ... but back then ...
Would you have been able to find it in Direct Experience? To see, hear, touch, sense, taste, or smell it?

What is this "thing" that apparently was in total control of "your" life?

:))

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Re: Orion's

Postby Amarti » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:40 pm

Well. Can you tell me what this "I" or ego was?

A "Conditioned thought"

--------------------------
Could you actually find it?

No!

---------------------------
Out of what was it constructed?

Out of "nothing"

---------------------------
It doesn't seem to be here anymore, ... but back then ...

Its presence it use to appear as a voice giving opinions or directions.
----------------------------

Would you have been able to find it in Direct Experience? To see, hear, touch, sense, taste, or smell it?

No!
-----------------------------

What is this "thing" that apparently was in total control of "your" life?

Other names for it: "I, ego, or conditioned self"

-------------------------------


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