Here I Am

[Canfora]

Hello littlesatchl and thank you for your honesty.

How about this right now; responding to your post... I read what you wrote, with my eyeballs, then watch the thoughts that come streaming out in response. I'd like to think I can choose how to respond, based on those thoughts, but then comes the questions, who's choosing?, who's thinking? etc. This brings another thought; perhaps that is too easy of a response. So thoughts go off on a million different tangents from there. I'd like to think I can bring it back down to simply seeing what's in front of me right now and all that is, is just the computer and the room I'm in, and my hands typing on the keyboard. I'd like to choose to just leave this as my response, but no, it seems a whole can of worms has been opened up now and I've been lost in thoughts regarding control, and choice, and many other existential questions all day long, ever since I read your post this morning.

You are having a thinking storm that seems to be clouding all the rest. That's okay. It will pass. Maybe it's already gone?

The chief one being: If we have no control, if the "I" is taken out of everything, then what are we? Robots? Zombies? Ghosts in the machine? Puppets of the gods? Organic conditioned responses to internal and external stimuli? Etc.

What are your thoughts about what a dog is? Or a tree? Or a fish? Are you something separated from other life forms? Or are you life also? Yes, you may be wondering about existence and it is very likely that a ant isn't, but does thinking have the capacity to make you more than? Separate from?

And then there's the whole Interdependence thing. Nothing is isolated, is it? It's all interconnected and changing constantly. I haven't actually SEEN that but am intuiting it. (The mysterious flow!) And I'm hoping the day might come when I DO see it, and hoping it will be very beautiful.

Aren't you SEEing the whole Interdependence thing right now? If your eyes are open, aren't you already looking to the flow of life? Can you see light and movement and all that can be seen and hear sounds and feel sensations? It may not be considered mysterious but it has one thing that the elusive, other than this, reality you're probably expecting to find in a imaginary future, doesn't have: it's real! It's what is happening here and now! What can the mysterious flow be other than what is effortlessly and already happening here now?

How much control we have over our lives has been a question I've been trying to answer for a number of years. I've never felt we have complete control, nor would I want that, as I like surprises and spontaneity, so I don't think it's ever been just black and white for me. However, this is the first time I've considered that maybe we don't have any control.

That's not the point! You may think you have control. You may think you don't have control. These are only thoughts right?

An arm moves and a thought pops up: "I've controlled the movement". A arm doesn't move and a thought pops up: "I can control the arm, so that it doesn't move". They may seem to be accurate or not but we aren't trying to see if one of these points of view is more real than other.

The idea is to look to what is going on and notice what is going on - instead of relying on thoughts and interpretation to understand what is going on.

Is the I that thoughts say has control real or not? Have a look. Can you see, touch, smell, hear this you?

Can you find such a thing when you look or only thoughts about it?

But this is turning into more of a philosophical babbling now, so I will "choose" to stop here. haha. I'm very tired today. VERY tired. My brain did not want to function, just run on auto-pilot.

This is not an inquiry that relies in the brain. Use the eyes, use the senses, and see what is here. When I say "see" that's exactly what I mean. If an I is real, you will be able to see it, to find it. If an I isn't real, you will not be able to see it, to find it. All the thinking in the world, as clever as it can be, will not help you here. Thinking can't see anything that is here. Only describe or cloud what is here.

Thank you again for taking the time to help guide me. It's such a wonderful thing you're doing for people. I'm very grateful.

Someone did the same to me :) You are very welcome.

Take care,
S

[littlesatchl]

You are having a thinking storm that seems to be clouding all the rest. That's okay. It will pass. Maybe it's already gone?

It was more like a hurricane. My goodness, how easily I get sucked back into it all.

All the thinking in the world, as clever as it can be, will not help you here. Thinking can't see anything that is here. Only describe or cloud what is here.

I'm "thinking" of having the above words framed and hung on the wall in front of me, it is a much-needed reminder. Thank you :-)

Use the eyes, use the senses, and see what is here.

It really is so simple. So amazingly simple.

[Canfora]

It was more like a hurricane. My goodness, how easily I get sucked back into it all.

This made me laugh. I could say something similar. I'm also sucked by hurricanes sometimes. But.... is it true there is an I getting sucked into it all? Or getting sucked happens without an I? Could not being sucked happen at all? Does the self-illusion happen to you or seem to create a you? Could any moment be different than it is? Notice how, when mind comments something, it's usually after it's over. The "should haves" and "shouldn't haves" that seem to imply some control over a situation appear after it's over. And all the futurology we do - thinking about future events - is also fussing about something that simply isn't happening.

It really is so simple. So amazingly simple.

Can you say more, please? What are you talking about?

[littlesatchl]

is it true there is an I getting sucked into it all? Or getting sucked happens without an I? Could not being sucked happen at all? Does the self-illusion happen to you or seem to create a you? Could any moment be different than it is? Notice how, when mind comments something, it's usually after it's over.

This is what I see: No, there is no I getting sucked into it all, or even not getting sucked into it all. There is no one for the self illusion to happen to. No moment could be any different, it all just unfolds, it all just happens. The mind comments after the fact.

It really is so simple. So amazingly simple.

Can you say more, please? What are you talking about?

If you just look with your eyes at what's right in front of you. That's it. That's life. That's everything right there. Nothing to be done. No doer. No thinker. Just LIFE!

[littlesatchl]

So, I think I had it backwards when I was in the middle of my "thought storm" (I loved that phrasing!) and was wondering if without an "I" we are just robots or zombies... Seems to me that when we are caught up in "self-ing" THAT is when we are being robots or zombies, just operating from sheer conditioning/habit. But this, too, is just more thinking and labeling after the fact...

There is awareness. An awareness. It's there all the time, it operates freely and effortlessly. It is even aware of when we are telling our me-stories.

Is this on the right track?

[Canfora]

Hi littlesatchl,

There is awareness. An awareness. It's there all the time, it operates freely and effortlessly. It is even aware of when we are telling our me-stories.

Is what you are labeling awareness personal - is it yours, is it a you?

Is this on the right track?

Do you have doubts? Which are they?

Take care,
S

[littlesatchl]

[quoteIs what you are labeling awareness personal - is it yours, is it a you?][/quote]


No, it's impersonal, and it's not "mine."

Do you have doubts? Which are they?

No, I guess I don't have doubts. Just looking for validation. But that's just my imaginary self going on, so never mind...

[Canfora]

Can you please answer some more questions, just so that we check if something needs further investigation?

Here are the first 3 questions:

1) Was ‘me’/‘myself’ ever a living being that moves, speaks or thinks?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of ‘me’/‘myself’ is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

[littlesatchl]

1) Was ‘me’/‘myself’ ever a living being that moves, speaks or thinks?

Although there is a living being that moves, speaks and thinks, having looked into this, no I-me-myself, was found to exist or to ever have existed. It can't be seen or touched or controlled or control anything. There is just being-ness.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of ‘me’/‘myself’ is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It's just a thought, but there isn't even any thinker, because thoughts can't think thoughts. It seems to be a conglomeration of a lifetime of stories, conditioning and social reinforcement. The conditioning starts the moment we are born and are given a name, a label, and are taught how to view this "self" and the world around it using more labels. It does not exist in Reality, in the here and now and what can be seen in front of our eyes. Thoughts arise in response to situations, after the fact, after a direct experience and creates a story to go with it.

3) How does it feel to see this?

When there is direct experience going on, only life as it is happening is seen. It has a fresh and open quality to it.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

Before this dialogue was started, there was a belief in a me, an I, a myself and a feeling of separateness. Now there is just life happening, observing and immediately experiencing life. There are still "thinking storms" of self, and that is part of the life happening. There are smiles and still some tears as it feels the heart is opening when more and more of the illusion is seen through. Example, sitting here typing this, looking at my surroundings, everything is just as it is, a sweet simplicity, and the eyes get a little misty. :-)

[littlesatchl]

From the below, perhaps "heart" was the wrong choice of word as that is really just another label. There is a sensation of something that I can't put into words. Maybe movement? Maybe it doesn't need a word. Thinking storm! Take cover! lol

[Canfora]

Thank you for your answers!

Here are 3 other questions:

4) What was key in seeing this?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Does ‘me’/‘myself’ make things happen? Is ‘me’/‘myself’ in control of anything? How does it work? What is ‘me’/‘myself’ responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[littlesatchl]

4) What was key in seeing this?

The graphic you posted of the little man inside the head pulling levers :-)

Learning to use direct experience, (what can be seen, touched, tasted, heard and sensed) to see that what we had previously believed to be an "I" was/is a collection of thoughts, which cannot be seen, touched, tasted, heard and sensed, and therefore does not exist in Reality or actual direct experience. Also, a state of exhaustion. The mind stopped chasing its tail just long enough to let a crack open up so some direct experience could happen.

But also, from direct experience, and learning that there is no self, I really couldn't say how this seeing happened. Just part of the flow, or unfoldment of life.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Does ‘me’/‘myself’ make things happen? Is ‘me’/‘myself’ in control of anything? How does it work? What is ‘me’/‘myself’ responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There is no I/me/myself, so there is nobody choosing or controlling anything. This pretty much freaked me out when it was seen, and the self-illusion still throws up a lot of thoughtstorms about it. So again, as stated above, there is only 'life' unfolding, or whatever word would be appropriate for the unfolding, or flow. There is no separation of anything, all things influence all things in a myriad of ways, constantly changing, it is all interdependent.

There is no me/myself to be responsible for anything.

6) Anything to add?

There is a strong curiosity to keep inquiring into every facet of this. Yesterday while driving, it occurred to me that since nobody is in control, then when car accidents happen, there is nobody to blame and get upset at. I looked at my relationships and realized if no one is in control, there's nobody to get mad at and nobody who can GET mad. At the fireworks show last night, looking out at the crowd, there was the thought that nobody was in control there. Anything can happen at any time and it's all impersonal, and yes, mysterious. It's like the thinking mind wants to just eat all this up! It's quite fascinating.

[Canfora]

Hi littlesatchl,
Thank you so much for your answers!
I've asked the other guides if they want to ask you something else. This can take a day or so. I will post tomorrow.

Take care,
S

[littlesatchl]

Okay. Thank you!

[Canfora]

They didn't thought more questions were needed, so welcome to the other side of the gateless gate :)
An administrator is going to send you a welcome message and a invitation to join LU aftercare group.
It was a pleasure being your guide, littlesatchl and I wish you the best!
Take care,
S