No-self

[tcrowell]

Do you feel ready for the questions? If you have anything you'd still like to investigate or any doubts at all, now would be a good time to mention them.

I am ready for more questions. Thank you, Jon for all the time and consistent effort you have given.

[JonathanR]

You are welcome :-)

I'll present the questions three at a time.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Jon

[tcrowell]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. A separate self was and is an illusion.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self probably was developed and reinforced in childhood as a defense mechanism. On a daily basis, thoughts appear and conceptualize experience to protect the self. I might be having a conversation with my wife. Because she cares about me she might notice I'm eating more than I need to or not eating healthy. She might suggest "Instead of ice cream we have a lot of apples that are going bad. Why don't you eat an apple instead?" I will take offense. I now see a person over there while I am over here. And definitely a separate damn apple in the refrigerator. When I was eating the dinner there was oneness. When we are enjoying a TV show together there is no separation. There is no separate TV, no separate other person or no separate anything else. I don't even exist. There is just noticing.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is discomfort in the separation. There is no feeling in the oneness. There is only awareness of what's happening. There is a big difference now that I no longer see a separate self. I catch myself quickly before falling into the separate self. A uncomfortable energy is noticed and I realize separate self is trying to return. I notice the energy and it begins to dissipate. I am no longer seeking or wanting this moment to be different than it is.

[JonathanR]

Thank you very much for your answers. I love what you wrote for question 2 about the apple instead of the ice cream and the appearance of separation.

Here are the second three.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Thanks

Jon

[tcrowell]

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Not sure which time that pushed me over and "look" at what. But if you mean what caused me to originally begin seeking it was the early nineties, I was in my thirties and was looking for what was "wrong" with me. Or if you mean what caused me to look at your site, I can't remember but I think it was a Dzogchen site.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There is no decision, intention, free will, choice or control. Or at least there is nothing that makes those things happen. They happen because of events or conditioning coming together pushing them one way or another. There is no "I" or self that moves them one way or another. They happen and there is a witnessing of it. An example would be that there is a feeling of hunger. There is a walking toward the refrigerator. There is an opening of the door. There is a reaching in and grabbing a particular food. There is a walking to the table. There is eating and digesting of food.

6)
Anything to add?

Only to thank the people who run this site and Jon, for his compassion, gentle guidance and consistency of response times.

[JonathanR]

Thank you very much for your replies, which are all great.

To clarify question 4), What is meant here is, was there a point at which it fell into place or became clear that there is no self and no doer? This could have been during our conversation or at an earlier stage? It may even have been a gradual thing. But was there a moment, something I said, or that you saw that you could say 'that was when it became clear'?

Many thanks.

Jon

[tcrowell]

was there a moment, something I said, or that you saw that you could say 'that was when it became clear'?

No. As I said at the time, I think I was looking for that pink cloud enlightenment that you read about. Instead it became clear, "Dude, give it up. It aint gonna happen. There is no me. Sorry there's no magical movie moment but seriously, its time to move on. And could you pick up that shirt on the floor before someone trips over it? Thank you. "

[JonathanR]

Well. Thank you. That's very clear :-)

I invited the guides to look at our conversation. One of them asks:

what this "I" is, or who is it that feels the energy dissipating?



Thank you,

Jon

[tcrowell]

what this "I" is, or who is it that feels the energy dissipating?

Unfortunately I, excuse me there is a noticing that something, has to use language because language was used to ask the question. In this case the pronoun "I" is what the conditioning from years of speaking English has used.

A better way would have been to say that the energy was noticed to be dissipating. But I get that it is very easy to slip back into duality.

[JonathanR]

Thanks very much for that clarification. Yes, language can get in the way very easily.

Just to let you know, my broadband is up the spout and I'm not sure when it will be fixed. Please do check back in the next day or two though.

Many thanks,

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello again.

The guide now asks:

'When you write in your answer "there is a noticing that something, has to use language" and later on that "energy was noticed to be dissipating"... please say WHAT this is, that is noticing... and how this WHAT is related to Tcrowell?"

Thank you.

Jon

[JonathanR]

Don't know if you have had a chance to look at the latest questions? Do let me know if they seem impossible or confusing in any way?

Many thanks,

Jon

[tcrowell]

I'm sorry, Jon. I didn't see this last question. I went back into my email search to find our last conversation and saw this.

'When you write in your answer "there is a noticing that something, has to use language" and later on that "energy was noticed to be dissipating"... please say WHAT this is, that is noticing... and how this WHAT is related to Tcrowell?"

I do not know what this is, that is noticing. I don't know how it is related to Tcrowell, or what Tcrowell is.

[JonathanR]

I'm sorry, Jon. I didn't see this last question. I went back into my email search to find our last conversation and saw this.

No worries.Thank you for answering. I will try to alert the guide who asked the question and get back to you again. I'm not sure how long this might take, hopefully only a day or two.

All the best

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi,

You will know it already that you are 'through' the gateless gate. You told us this yourself.

This isn't an end so much as a beginning, in that all sorts of things can be investigated if so desired.

Congratulations! It has been a pleasure to work with you over the past few weeks.

I'm sending you a Private Message which you can find towards the top of this page near to where your name shows and the 'search' bar is found. Please read it because I'll be sending various details, some of which may be of interest to you.

Once again, thank you.

Jon