Here I Am

[Canfora]

Hi littlesatchl,

But this morning, was back to the same old mindset.

Wonderful, now you can look at the self-illusion from other angle ;-)

But this morning, was back to the same old mindset.

I understanding what you are saying and can relate. At the same time it seems to me that you are looking to symptoms that cause the self-illusion and believing that they may be a proof that there is a real self to whom all this is happening, without questioning those beliefs.

So, keep looking. You can do it. Do you see a self right now? Can a real self be sensed in any way, shape or form? Have a look around. What could this you be? And where could this you be?

and the thought came up that it is not so easy to see there is no self, when you're staring into your own eyes in a mirror.

That's funny. When I look to the eyes in the mirror I don't see a self there. I see what I would call impersonal aliveness (although it is seen also as a very familiar and known presence that I can say is me). Try looking to the eyes again and see if that thought is accurate. Are you looking to a me, a self inside a body, or to a body full of aliveness? What is yours or personal in what can be seen in the mirror?

Take care,
S

[littlesatchl]

I understanding what you are saying and can relate. At the same time it seems to me that you are looking to symptoms that cause the self-illusion and believing that they may be a proof that there is a real self to whom all this is happening, without questioning those beliefs.

I'm not sure I understand the above statement. You said something similar yesterday,

I ask these questions because - in my own experience - the knowing that there isn't a me doesn't equal permanent bliss or pleasant states. If you see these pleasant experiences has a prove that you are seeing what we are pointing to here in the forum, it is very likely then when life gets difficult you start thinking that you didn't get it, after all.

Something about the wording, I'm just not getting it. Seems to be something about proof or proving something but there seems to be a little bit of a language glitch there. Also, am I still talking with the same person who initially responded to my original post? The whole tone seems to have changed. I guess in the end it doesn't matter, but I am curious.

Today was very confusing. I learned that I spend 99.99% of my time lost in the me-story. Shocking! hahaha

Also, two unpleasant experiences arose. In the first one, the whole "I" came up again and try as I might, I was unable to see that the I wasn't real at that moment, but I did struggle with it, but then came the question that has been asked before - do we have control over our thoughts? Can we choose what we think? It's clear the answer is no, but so if the answer is no and we have no control, then how can I see through the illusion when lost in the middle of it? And how was it that it seemed like I was able to do it the day before yesterday, when I was actively looking for a self and was able to see so clearly there wasn't one? How did that happen?

The second unpleasant thing today was the heat during the drive home when the air conditioner stopped working. My "I" was miserable!!! But again, I was looking for an I, and couldn't find it. There was a moment, though, where it was very clear that there doesn't have to be a self present to experience uncomfortable heat, and so there was another one of those clear moments. It didn't make me any less hot or uncomfortable, but there was the definite sensation that what was happening was only being experienced, but not by a "me", it was impersonal.

Looking into the mirror today was confusing, too. It seemed there was a shifting back and forth between feeling a 'person' was in there, and it was personal, and NOT feeling it was personal, just a body.

Am I talking too much about myself and these experiences and not doing enough work? Have I gotten off track?

Thank you for all your help so far, by the way.

[Canfora]

am I still talking with the same person who initially responded to my original post? The whole tone seems to have changed. I guess in the end it doesn't matter, but I am curious.

Yes, I'm the same person. The change in tone can be explained by changes in circunstancies. Sometimes I don't have a computer available and I use an android instead. When that happens I write short posts, may not do quotes, and maybe I'm more focused. English isn't my mother tongue, which can probably also explain why sometimes I sound different. But you've been talking only with me.

I understanding what you are saying and can relate. At the same time it seems to me that you are looking to symptoms that cause the self-illusion and believing that they may be a proof that there is a real self to whom all this is happening, without questioning those beliefs.

I'm not sure I understand the above statement. You said something similar yesterday,

You haven't found a separate self yet, although you have looked and tried to find such a thing. What I'm trying to say is that you are seeing appear what is making the illusion that you are a separate self and that seeing what causes the illusion is causing identification as a self. The "syntoms" of the illusion appear to be the reasons why a self may exist. So, it's a good idea to question if they are the self or are somehow connected to a real self. Did this explanation help?

Today was very confusing. I learned that I spend 99.99% of my time lost in the me-story. Shocking! hahaha

Shocking indeed! :)

how can I see through the illusion when lost in the middle of it?

Do you remember the time it took you to learn how to read, do math, tie shoelaces, drive a car? It's the same here. It takes practice.

And how was it that it seemed like I was able to do it the day before yesterday, when I was actively looking for a self and was able to see so clearly there wasn't one? How did that happen?

Different circumstances, probably.

Looking into the mirror today was confusing, too. It seemed there was a shifting back and forth between feeling a 'person' was in there, and it was personal, and NOT feeling it was personal, just a body.

That's okay.

Am I talking too much about myself and these experiences and not doing enough work? Have I gotten off track?

No, don't worry. At the time being, can you see something that you think is what you are? Or something that is happening that you think happens because a you is real? Or something that you think shouldn't be happening, if it is true a you isn't real?

[littlesatchl]

You haven't found a separate self yet, although you have looked and tried to find such a thing. What I'm trying to say is that you are seeing appear what is making the illusion that you are a separate self and that seeing what causes the illusion is causing identification as a self. The "syntoms" of the illusion appear to be the reasons why a self may exist. So, it's a good idea to question if they are the self or are somehow connected to a real self. Did this explanation help?

Oooohhhhhh. Yes, it helped very much, thank you!

I think lately I have stopped looking for the self and have started looking instead for those instances of where there is not a self. I've been much more aware of those times when you can take the "I" out of what is being done and see that it continues to happen anyway, like when listening, and breathing. And the other day in the car, when I was hot and miserable, and had that moment where the I lifted away and saw that it was impersonal and just happening. But I am not having too much luck just yet. But it's funny that it seems like it's started to become almost a habit, this looking for those moments.

No, don't worry. At the time being, can you see something that you think is what you are? Or something that is happening that you think happens because a you is real? Or something that you think shouldn't be happening, if it is true a you isn't real?

No. Honestly, I really have no arguments left regarding whether there is really a you or not. There is not! However, like you mentioned before, I do continue to see the ILLUSION of self, or the symptoms, and to get sucked back into it. There does still seem to be resistance to seeing through it when it appears most of the time. But my focus seems to have shifted, as mentioned above.

[littlesatchl]

Still looking at this. The body and the bodily sensations also seem to contribute to a sense of I. Thought thinks if there's feeling, then an "I" must be feeling it.

But I know that's not true, because of the heated car moment. And because thoughts cannot think other thoughts.

I had another one of those moments today where once again I "saw" that nobody is in control. Things just happen. Things really do just happen. You can't control your thoughts. But what about when you try to make choices, like going on a diet or trying to quit smoking? People seem able to accomplish these things. If you have no control, and don't really make any choices, how is it they are able to do these things? Is it because the intention is strong enough? Didn't I choose to sign up on this website? Or is there something behind it all that makes these choices for us and then we think we are the ones who've made the choice?

Totally stumped now.

[Canfora]

I think lately I have stopped looking for the self and have started looking instead for those instances of where there is not a self. I've been much more aware of those times when you can take the "I" out of what is being done and see that it continues to happen anyway, like when listening, and breathing. And the other day in the car, when I was hot and miserable, and had that moment where the I lifted away and saw that it was impersonal and just happening. But I am not having too much luck just yet. But it's funny that it seems like it's started to become almost a habit, this looking for those moments.

What do you mean when you say you aren't having too much luck? What are you expecting to happen?

No. Honestly, I really have no arguments left regarding whether there is really a you or not. There is not! However, like you mentioned before, I do continue to see the ILLUSION of self, or the symptoms, and to get sucked back into it.

I understand what you are saying but you have to dig a little deeper here.

Even when you know a rainbow is a optical illusion, you will still be seeing a rainbow when the conditions that seem to create a rainbow are in place. Does this mean the rainbow is a real separate thing?

So, what is seeing the illusion? Is there something that gets stuck in the illusion? What would that be? Can a body get stuck? Can a emotional state get stuck? Can sensations get stuck? Can the sense of being a self get stuck? Can thinking get stuck? Is this story of getting stuck real?

There does still seem to be resistance to seeing through it when it appears most of the time.

I wonder if when you write "resistance" you are talking about living life as a normal human being, without doing any inquiry. Flowing with life and flowing as the illusion. Are you trying to use looking to stop this flow? Do you think there is something wrong if you are living life like a normal human being? Do you expect that inquiring will make you transcend humanness? Not sure why I'm asking this but these questions popped up, so I'll let them here.

he body and the bodily sensations also seem to contribute to a sense of I. Thought thinks if there's feeling, then an "I" must be feeling it.

But I know that's not true, because of the heated car moment. And because thoughts cannot think other thoughts.

I would prefer that you don't rely in a past experience and thoughts about thoughts. It would be best if you look to what is going on in your experience right now.

But what about when you try to make choices, like going on a diet or trying to quit smoking? People seem able to accomplish these things. If you have no control, and don't really make any choices, how is it they are able to do these things? Is it because the intention is strong enough? Didn't I choose to sign up on this website? Or is there something behind it all that makes these choices for us and then we think we are the ones who've made the choice?

Totally stumped now.

Let's do an exercise around control, shall we? I've borrowed this from one of the other guides:

Exercise:
Choose one of the hands, it doesn't matter which one - Choose either left hand or right hand.
Then, when you feel you wish to, raise that chosen hand into the air.

Do this as many times as you wish to, but each time please examine the experience and report from what can be found in doing the exercise.

What can you find doing the choosing? What is making the decision?
Is a decision or choice actually being made? If so, by what?

What can you find controlling the arm and hand, causing it to rise, causing the muscles to contract in a specific way? What can be found doing that / causing it to happen?
Is the arm and hand under any actual control? If so, what is controlling them?

From what you are finding - consider - Is there a chooser or controller of any kind?
What can be found - And what can be inferred / estimated from thought and memory?

[littlesatchl]

What do you mean when you say you aren't having too much luck? What are you expecting to happen?

I mean I am not having much luck at having more moments where I can see through the "I". Maybe I am not really getting this after all. Feeling kind of sad and like a failure at the moment :-(

I'm not sure what I was expecting to happen. Maybe to see and live life in a new way, freer, not me-story centered anymore.

So, what is seeing the illusion?

I don't know. I honestly don't know. Some kind of impersonal awareness, but I have no idea what it is or where it comes from.

Is there something that gets stuck in the illusion? What would that be? Can a body get stuck? Can a emotional state get stuck? Can sensations get stuck? Can the sense of being a self get stuck? Can thinking get stuck? Is this story of getting stuck real?

My stupid ego. It may not be real, but I am surely buying into it big time at THIS moment :-(

I wonder if when you write "resistance" you are talking about living life as a normal human being, without doing any inquiry. Flowing with life and flowing as the illusion. Are you trying to use looking to stop this flow? Do you think there is something wrong if you are living life like a normal human being? Do you expect that inquiring will make you transcend humanness? Not sure why I'm asking this but these questions popped up, so I'll let them here.

I don't really see any flow. Am I supposed to be seeing a flow? I thought I am supposed to keep inquiring until the 'magic spell of Self" is broken once and for all. I really don't know what I was expecting. Now I am completely and totally confused. I don't know how I was or am supposed to feel after inquiring and looking into the nature of self. IS IT okay to just be a normal human being and not inquire anymore? Then what the heck have we been doing all this time? And why are we continuing to do it? I'm sorry, but I am, as I said before, completely and totally confused right now!

Hand exercise:

What can you find doing the choosing? What is making the decision?
Is a decision or choice actually being made? If so, by what?

Doesn't the choice to raise the arm have to be made in order for the arm to raise up? If there isn't an intention to raise the arm, the arm has no reason to be raised. It will just sit there. So, SOMETHING makes a choice or decision, or provides an intention, or a stimulus to do so. Is it the mind? Is it just a thought? Is it just the situation triggering a response? I'm trying to think out loud here. What made me want to lift my arm? Curiosity. Curiosity so I might find answers to the questions being asked. Where did the curiosity come from? I have no idea. I don't know what chooses to raise the right arm as opposed to the left arm. I don't know what animates it and makes the muscles contract, that's just how an arm moves. It happens automatically once the intention to move it occurs.

What can you find controlling the arm and hand, causing it to rise, causing the muscles to contract in a specific way? What can be found doing that / causing it to happen?
Is the arm and hand under any actual control? If so, what is controlling them?

From what you are finding - consider - Is there a chooser or controller of any kind?
What can be found - And what can be inferred / estimated from thought and memory?

I don't know. I'm starting to feel like these questions have no answers. Or I'm just too blind to see.

[littlesatchl]

So incredibly frustrated right now!

And I can't seem to stop. I look around. Who or what is frustrated. I don't know. I can't SEE anything directly, so it must be NOTHING.

and it doesn't make any sense. My brain hurts.

[Canfora]

Hi littlesatchl, good morning,

I hope the sadness and frustration don't make you stop inquiring. You are going in the right direction. Please try to be patient and nice to yourself. There is no reason to feel bad about any of this. It's okay if you stop inquiring when it seems to be getting overwhelming and try again when things are more calm.

I mean I am not having much luck at having more moments where I can see through the "I". Maybe I am not really getting this after all. Feeling kind of sad and like a failure at the moment :-(

Looking at the symptoms again? :-)
What is causing the sadness, is it a you?
What is feeling the sadness, is it a you?
What is behind the sadness, is it a you?
What is feeling like a failure, is it a you?
Have a look and see what is there.
This isn't a mind game that you can fail. There is no goal to reach other than noticing what is here right now. Can you find a self, a separate, permanent, solid entity, a findable you?

I'm not sure what I was expecting to happen. Maybe to see and live life in a new way, freer, not me-story centered anymore.

Those are normal expectations. And what you are longing for may happen or not. Changes happen, sure, life is all about changes. Can you make life go in the direction you want? Are you able to control what is going on, so that it fits your preferences? Focus in finding the one that may reach a different way of relating with life. What do you find that can change? Do you find a self that can be how thoughts say it should be?

My stupid ego. It may not be real, but I am surely buying into it big time at THIS moment :-(

Ok. You seem to be "playing" one of your familiar and repetitive "me records", the sad me and stupid me record. Is this a tendency you have? A habitual way to relate with what is going on?

I don't really see any flow. Am I supposed to be seeing a flow? I thought I am supposed to keep inquiring until the 'magic spell of Self" is broken once and for all. I really don't know what I was expecting. Now I am completely and totally confused. I don't know how I was or am supposed to feel after inquiring and looking into the nature of self. IS IT okay to just be a normal human being and not inquire anymore? Then what the heck have we been doing all this time? And why are we continuing to do it? I'm sorry, but I am, as I said before, completely and totally confused right now!

Most people inquiry to reach something. A better me. Peace of mind. A state of oneness. Bliss. Unconditional love. The end of seeking. And believe that when what they are looking for is reached they will stop seeking for what they don't have now. Seeking is a path of no acceptance of what is here now. There must be more. I can be more. This isn't it. Blababla. Is doing inquiry increasing the believe that there is a you? Why are you inquiring?

Doesn't the choice to raise the arm have to be made in order for the arm to raise up? If there isn't an intention to raise the arm, the arm has no reason to be raised. It will just sit there. So, SOMETHING makes a choice or decision, or provides an intention, or a stimulus to do so. Is it the mind? Is it just a thought? Is it just the situation triggering a response? I'm trying to think out loud here. What made me want to lift my arm? Curiosity. Curiosity so I might find answers to the questions being asked. Where did the curiosity come from? I have no idea. I don't know what chooses to raise the right arm as opposed to the left arm. I don't know what animates it and makes the muscles contract, that's just how an arm moves. It happens automatically once the intention to move it occurs.

The goal of this exercise is to see and describe what is going on. You thought about this and that and other. Did you notice if a self was a part of what goes on when you do the arm exercise? Have a look. Do you see a self doing this exercise?

I don't know. I'm starting to feel like these questions have no answers. Or I'm just too blind to see.

This is not about getting answers. It's about seeing. Do you see a self? If you don't, isn't that absence the answer that you are looking for?

So incredibly frustrated right now!

And I can't seem to stop. I look around. Who or what is frustrated. I don't know. I can't SEE anything directly, so it must be NOTHING.

Again, isn't not seeing the answer? How do you know something is real or not? NOTHING is something that you can see or is a thought about what this may be? Is it real that you see nothing? What do you see?

[littlesatchl]

Thank you, Canfora, for your kindness, and for reminding me how to look. I don't want to stop inquiring. Do I even have a choice? Who or what chooses? <Joke> Or is it??? ;-)

Ready to try again!

Looking at the symptoms again? :-)

Lol! My goodness yes!

Can you find a self, a separate, permanent, solid entity, a findable you?

No. I cannot.

The goal of this exercise is to see and describe what is going on. You thought about this and that and other. Did you notice if a self was a part of what goes on when you do the arm exercise? Have a look. Do you see a self doing this exercise?

The arm goes up all by itself. I do not see a self doing it.

Ok. You seem to be "playing" one of your familiar and repetitive "me records", the sad me and stupid me record. Is this a tendency you have? A habitual way to relate with what is going on?

No, not really, but it seems that a whole cluster of circumstances have arisen recently that pushed that particular button pretty hard and poof! Out popped the temper tantrum pity party symptoms of self...

This is not about getting answers. It's about seeing. Do you see a self? If you don't, isn't that absence the answer that you are looking for?

No, I don't see a self and yes, that absence is indeed the answer I was looking for.


I don't see a self at all.

I see thoughts, and feel sensations, but I do not see a self. Perhaps I thought that once I saw there was no self, that it would magically go away, or should I say the symptoms of it would cease. But that was just another symptom of it!

Since there is no self and nobody is in control, there's really nothing left to do or that can be done, right? No more doer.

[Canfora]

That's a nice post littlesatchl.

I see thoughts, and feel sensations, but I do not see a self. Perhaps I thought that once I saw there was no self, that it would magically go away, or should I say the symptoms of it would cease. But that was just another symptom of it!

Yep. Nice catch :)

Since there is no self and nobody is in control, there's really nothing left to do or that can be done, right? No more doer.

Things get done, yes. Is it true that a separate entity that is supposed to be doing stuff is an illusion? Can you give me some examples about how this is known by observing your immediate experience?

I'll give you some examples of specif situations you can explore. Pick one or two, or find one yourself, and explore what is happening with fresh eyes:

- writing, cooking, showering or something similar - is it possible to find a you, an entity, while doing this kind of stuff?

- walking - is it possible to find a you moving the body?

- listening to music, sightseeing, eating, etc - is a you "doing" the senses?

- getting out of bed in the morning - is it possible to find a you making the body get up?

I suppose these examples are enough for you to get the idea of what I'm suggesting that you do next: see what is going on, to check if the thoughts about what seems to be real in thinking - the existence of a real, solid, permanent, separate self that does things - matches what can be seen in your experience.

Let me know how it goes.

Take care,
S

[littlesatchl]

Is it true that a separate entity that is supposed to be doing stuff is an illusion? Can you give me some examples about how this is known by observing your immediate experience?

At work: processing checks on the computer, paying memberships, with each new entry a screen comes up that says "Processing". Perfect!!! That's all that's happening. Just processing. No self. No doer. Processing happening. Body and brain already know what to do. Nobody in control of it. Eyes scan checks, fingers enter numbers into screen, etc. No self there. (oh but if a mistake is made, the boss will blame "me". She will not buy the excuse "there is no me" hahaha. It doesn't matter. Still no me.)

Walking a deposit over to the other building: feet, legs move, skin feels sunlight/temperature - no self doing it, just automatic. Thoughts arise, the usual stuff, then, Ooooohhhh. There is no thinker! Thoughts are automatic, too. A sudden catch in the heart area, lump in throat, eyes mist up. My goodness. Seeing things very clearly today :-)

(Superfluous Side note: Line from a song keeps playing in my head; the Who, "you've been told many times before, messiahs pointed to the door but no one had the guts to leave the temple. I'm free!" It makes me laugh. An hour later, the rest of that line occurs: "I'm free! And freedom tastes of Reality." And I'm shocked at how spot on those lyrics are. Did Pete Townsend write that song? Did he visit Liberation Unleashed?! haha)

The pace picks up, the morning gets busier, but a feeling of calm and spaciousness is there the whole time.

Go to lunch, eat food, who's eating? There's nothing there, there really isn't. It's all just "automatic, for the people" (That's the title of an REM album -"Automatic, for the people" and it keeps recurring in my head throughout the day.)

Return to desk from lunch, and uh oh! Can't find my pen! I loved that pen! Who took MY pen! Who's been at MY desk!? My desk, MY pen! Me, me, me. It sticks for a little while. No one is in control. There is nothing to do about it. It passes. Body felt constricted, mind felt crowded and closed. Just observing. Who's observing? There is no observer. Wow.

Going to listen to some music now.

[littlesatchl]

(Superfluous Side note to the previous Superfluous Side note: I just thought it was funny that of all the songs to pop up in my head, that one came up, with those particular lyrics. I did not meant to imply "I'm free" (because there is no I) and that's what made me laugh).

[Canfora]

Hi littlesatchl,

Reading your posts send chills down my spine. Seriously. Thank you for sharing what could be seen happening. Lyrics can be mind blowing. Sometimes it's possible to find insight in the most curious places, movies, things people say, books, all kind of youtube talks. When there is syntony with a specific view there are many things that eventually pop up and seem to be connected to that landscape :)

I don't like the things are happening on "automatic" point of view. It makes life seem very dry. I prefer the this is all a mystery point of view. It feels better.

How about control? Usually this is one of the beliefs that get people stuck: I have some degree of control over what is happening. These kind of thoughts imply there is a me, separate from life, that can pull life strings to have some control over a piece of live. How do you see this now?

We aren't trying to verify if control is real or not. Most reflections we do when we think about control are black and white thinking. We can think "I can control these fingers" or we can think "These fingers are moving without a me controlling them, on automatic, so there is no control". So, a thought contradicts the other thought. If this is not this, then it has to be that. That's one of the ways how mind tries to understand what is going on.

Can you try looking at a situation where it seems there is a you controlling what is going on and describe what you see?

Take care,
S

[littlesatchl]

Can you try looking at a situation where it seems there is a you controlling what is going on and describe what you see?

How about this right now; responding to your post... I read what you wrote, with my eyeballs, then watch the thoughts that come streaming out in response. I'd like to think I can choose how to respond, based on those thoughts, but then comes the questions, who's choosing?, who's thinking? etc. This brings another thought; perhaps that is too easy of a response. So thoughts go off on a million different tangents from there. I'd like to think I can bring it back down to simply seeing what's in front of me right now and all that is, is just the computer and the room I'm in, and my hands typing on the keyboard. I'd like to choose to just leave this as my response, but no, it seems a whole can of worms has been opened up now and I've been lost in thoughts regarding control, and choice, and many other existential questions all day long, ever since I read your post this morning.

The chief one being: If we have no control, if the "I" is taken out of everything, then what are we? Robots? Zombies? Ghosts in the machine? Puppets of the gods? Organic conditioned responses to internal and external stimuli? Etc.

And then there's the whole Interdependence thing. Nothing is isolated, is it? It's all interconnected and changing constantly. I haven't actually SEEN that but am intuiting it. (The mysterious flow!) And I'm hoping the day might come when I DO see it, and hoping it will be very beautiful.

How much control we have over our lives has been a question I've been trying to answer for a number of years. I've never felt we have complete control, nor would I want that, as I like surprises and spontaneity, so I don't think it's ever been just black and white for me. However, this is the first time I've considered that maybe we don't have any control.

But this is turning into more of a philosophical babbling now, so I will "choose" to stop here. haha. I'm very tired today. VERY tired. My brain did not want to function, just run on auto-pilot.

Thank you again for taking the time to help guide me. It's such a wonderful thing you're doing for people. I'm very grateful.