New practictioner - guess what, i definitely want to awaken

[SleeplessYogi117]

So i found this place today, looks interesting. I've been practice buddhist meditation for a little under a year now, and have made little progress. Most likely because i keep getting impatient with techniques and switch to another one before i can take any real ground. Right now im working on concentration development, after a brief stint with vipassana practice, where i realize my concentration was not stable enough. I practice usually 2-4 hours a day, average being 2.5-3. Honestly I'm a little skeptical about this whole thing. It seems to good to be true. Someone just asks you a few questions and then you find yourself realizing no-self, enlightenment, or at least part of enlightenment. But it doesn't matter, I'm willing to try it. Whats the harm. I'm desperate for some kind of liberation. So, how do i get started? Any and all information would be appreciated it. Thank you very much.

[zenkitties]

Hey Sleepless,

I use to be the same way with techniques and the like. I could never hold onto any one practice to become "grounded" as you call it.

Let us start by saying if you can, put all your ideas about what you think needs to be done, aside while you are doing this investigation for yourself. They will only hinder the progress in which surrendering happens. What we will be doing is not willing something to be seen but just to look honestly at what is being asked.

Seeing no-self has nothing to do with meditation practice although it could compliment the inquiry. I'm a Zen kind of guy so meditation happens however there is no meditator to the meditation as you will come to see.

Honestly I'm a little skeptical about this whole thing.

Good you should be, this can be used as a spring board for your investigation!


Let's get started:

What are you expecting out of this; any thoughts that arise as to the way things should be, what should happen, what? Let it flow without fixing anything.

Is there an I or a you anywhere that can be found? Or is it that there is just thoughts happening about a supposed I. Look deep and be honest with yourself on this one.

[SleeplessYogi117]

Out of this im expecting to have a little more freedom, like i said i am skeptical and take this with a grain of salt and hope for at best an insight as a stepping stone in my path of insight. The way things "should be" seems like a long time of sustained effort to reach any kind of true freedom, like anything "no pain no gain" i guess..

The "I" cant be pinpointed per se, but there is a strong sense never the less. I know intellectually that self is not here, and have even had several experiences in daily life/meditation where i felt more clarified on the subject, but they faded away and habitual though patterns arose again as they always do. I can see that thoughts come and go, so does knowledge of the 5 sense doors (or 6, but i already said thoughts).. as in i can direct my awareness to the feeling of touch in my legs and completely forget about my sense of smell, which means even though it was there the whole time, theres no permanence in who is experiencing it, it almost seems to not exist when i'm not aware of it, like a subjective reality kind of thing. And then i look again into "I" and alot of it seems centered in my head area, behind my forehead, in my eyes... And though i cant find it it still seems to be the awareness that is manifesting thoughts, intentions, emotions. Like i said, i can understand but i cant see. No matter how i look that vague sense of watcher is always there sayin "come on, theres a self. There has to be if these things are being experienced"

[zenkitties]

The way things "should be" seems like a long time of sustained effort to reach any kind of true freedom, like anything "no pain no gain" i guess..

Freedom won't be able to be willed as long as you can see this, and if you can't right now its okay. I'll help get you to the point where you can take a look for yourself. Freedom happens with surrender. Ha the mental bondage that seems to be will dissipate but it won't necessarily mean happiness forever, that is a misconception. However seeing the facade allows the passing of "story" like troubles.

The "I" cant be pinpointed per se, but there is a strong sense never the less.

Strong sense indeed. however does there actually have to be a you for experiencing to happen? For instance when a bell is rung, is the experience of the ring happening and someone hearing it or is hearing just happening? Is there a distance between the ring and the hearer of the ring? If you aren't clear try finding some kind of object you can test this on... even a keyboard would suffice.

Like a dream where there is a strong sense that a unicorn exists, doesn't make it so. As soon as one wakes up, you know it wasn't real. Or to relate it to a movie, that the sensation has a strong sense what is going on, on a movie screen is really happening, even though its just a collection of lights projecting an image. Thoughts are no different.

as in i can direct my awareness to the feeling of touch in my legs and completely forget about my sense of smell, which means even though it was there the whole time, theres no permanence in who is experiencing it, it almost seems to not exist when i'm not aware of it, like a subjective reality kind of thing.

who or what is directing this awareness? your legs? what is labeling them as yours? do you see where I'm going with this? Is there an actual who anywhere or can there not just be the experiecing on its own without an experiencer. Look into this and tell me what comes to mind first.

Like i said, i can understand but i cant see. No matter how i look that vague sense of watcher is always there sayin "come on, theres a self. There has to be if these things are being experienced"

More thoughts of a "watcher". The watcher is a facade, another thought creating a false sense of you, a more "refined" one but nontheless still a thought. is there a watcher there or just the thought saying its watching something after sight happens?

[SleeplessYogi117]

I can see that hearing is not me, its just a thing that happens. But it seems as though "I" am experiencing this thing. For example, if i were to die and a bell were rung, there would be no experiencer, therefore no experience. So the experience does not seem to exist without any awareness experiencing it.

The mind is directing the awareness. For instance, i remember an experience in meditation when i first had the insight i explained above, then i recall what the experience was like, then my mind redirects awareness to the legs, notices the same thing, then i write about it here. Now i'm thinking of experience devoid of experiencer. Opening my mind to the fact the experience may just be another phenomenon like physical objects. At first this was a light feeling, then something in my solar plexus area felt anger. Now that i'm thinking, the "experience as phenomena" thought seems to make more sense. About 99% of things seem to be experience - concepts, emotions, thoughts, words, senses, actions - those are all experiences, (i think???, maybe im wrong). Certainly this makes up more of waking reality than materiality.

This watcher seems to be always lurking, in the brain area, being aware of what is happening. Sometimes i will think of the watcher as just another experience itself. I have gotten places with that before, but it never is a permanent perspective shift. And the fact that i can sense a watcher is fucked up too, cuz then who is watching the watcher? Then i notice that, and who is watching that watcher? And then its a mindfuck

[zenkitties]

For example, if i were to die and a bell were rung, there would be no experiencer, therefore no experience. So the experience does not seem to exist without any awareness experiencing it.

So you're basing your whole argument off of another thought then, some suposition. You do not really know this, don't kid yourself here. This is like taking a concept and then making up another concept to solidify how its valid even though both of these concepts aren't real in reality.

I can see that hearing is not me, its just a thing that happens

YES! Stick with this, we are looking for direct experience, not for story time that the mind makes up to try and disprove something.

The mind is directing the awareness

The mind isn't doing anything, there is no mind there, just a bundle of thoughts, look at how this is. Or if we are going to call the mind mind, atleast know, that it is not in the sense a "container" as if you look you will see there is no container there.

Also what do you mean by awareness?

At first this was a light feeling, then something in my solar plexus area felt anger.

Good to see that there was a noticing of anger, which means there is a resistence somewhere.

Now that i'm thinking, the "experience as phenomena" thought seems to make more sense. About 99% of things seem to be experience - concepts, emotions, thoughts, words, senses, actions - those are all experiences, (i think???, maybe im wrong). Certainly this makes up more of waking reality than materiality.

something like that, experiences happening to no one, they are just being experienced. Later the thought will latch on and say, "this is my experience" which then comes the false sense of self. See how easily it can do this? the sense is just a sense in and of itself, has no weight other then what it is naturally. The same with thought, it is just thoughts happening, without a "thinker" it is no different then anything else, so why give it anymore weight then the others?

This watcher seems to be always lurking, in the brain area, being aware of what is happening. Sometimes i will think of the watcher as just another experience itself. I have gotten places with that before, but it never is a permanent perspective shift. And the fact that i can sense a watcher is fucked up too, cuz then who is watching the watcher? Then i notice that, and who is watching that watcher? And then its a mindfuck

Quite the fascinating paradox isn't it?! Watching is only happening, without a watcher. Thought creates the paradox of a story about a watcher watching a watcher. thoughts will not leave, don't have to, as long as its seen that there is no you there.

Can you see there is no you, and if you can't, where is it?

The labeling that, "I must be in the head because of some sense of it." is just another labeling, does not require there to be a you for it to happen. Take a look.

[SleeplessYogi117]

By awareness i mean, just the fact that things are being experienced, i guess. No matter which way i slice it, there is still awareness that the 6 sense faculties are appearing. Otherwise "my existence" would cease. I see that the mind is not a container, just a supposed container for all the thoughts that seem to arise and pass away on their own accord. "Consciousness" is just awareness of the senses. Without senses, would there be any consciousness, any awareness? I dont know. Often when i think of thoughts and things going on in the "mind", i visualize something like a thought. I dont know if this is directly perceiving or juxtaposing my own conceptions onto bare experience. Idk, it just happens. There is still a sense of me, but perhaps a little less. Who is deciding to type this here right now? It would seem, i am. Otherwise, there is no free will is there? If there is no self to make choices, how can volition exist? Everything is just cause and effect then, going back untraceably (i know its not a word) to the beginning of consciousness. Sometimes i go back and forth, and when the sense of "I" gets strong, there is alot of suffering, everything feels hopeless. And another paradox, i want to be released from this suffering, its such a tangled not of craziness

[SleeplessYogi117]

knot***... sorry, i hate incorrect spelling

[zenkitties]

By awareness i mean, just the fact that things are being experienced, i guess. No matter which way i slice it, there is still awareness that the 6 sense faculties are appearing.

Those things are what is naturalling happening, agreed. It can be called whatever it wants, just see that, that label no matter what is nothing more than the label, it only points to what is actually going on.

Otherwise "my existence" would cease

That's what we are going for, because there is no my, no you. Just existence happening.

I dont know if this is directly perceiving or juxtaposing my own conceptions onto bare experience. Idk, it just happens.

They do just happen, there is no doer of thought. If it is thought to be one, just look and see if the evidence stacks up. Remember, senses don't translate necessarily into entity or someone doing something. Just like the body will react to something within a dream even though it is not actually happening. Even emotions, sounds, tastes, etc will happen in a dream.

Who is deciding to type this here right now? It would seem, i am.

the same thing that is saying i am opens up the possibility of a reaction. I am is a thought. So the thought over time seems to coerce the body into reacting based on its thoughts, beliefs, ideas, and environment. This collection gives a sense of "you" and acts accordingly.

Otherwise, there is no free will is there?

There is no you to have a free will so that should not be a troubling thing to see. life has always been happening in the best way possible at every moment regardless of whether the story is there or not.

Sometimes i go back and forth, and when the sense of "I" gets strong, there is alot of suffering, everything feels hopeless. And another paradox, i want to be released from this suffering, its such a tangled not of craziness.

What is it that makes this "I" strong and what makes it weak or if there even is an I to be strong. All thoughts hold zero weight to them unless they are believed to hold weight, then they appear this way no? All that suffering is happeneing because of not seeing there is nothing to suffer. The story is just a story with no one in it, but its imposing some fantasy character there.

Don't worry when its seen the mind will let it go or there will be a surrendering.

Who is struggling to get this now, what thoughts are happening?

[SleeplessYogi117]

When i just casually think about the complexity of interaction between the senses, i can sort of see it, that there is no self, just a collection of this's and that's, and it makes sense. I may be conceptualizing this. Then i try to consciously look for the I and sometimes get that sense of I, usually in my head or around my face. Often with a concept of "my" personality. But this is clearly just a countless number of bits of information, memories, and ideas strung together. It seems solid until you look at it, and then i cant find it in this present moment. I can maybe feel actions or speech being influenced by this personality but its just my brain background checking every experience ive ever had at lightning fast speed every second, this information is probably somewhere grouped obviously in the brain and it rides off this assumption that that is "me". To think there is no "me" sometimes feels very liberating, sometimes very scary. I feel like everything will just cease to exist when i find this out.

The thinker, the supposed doer is struggling to get this now. The same person who came to this website looking for relief. Idk where he is, i cant find him, and im talking about him in third person as if he is other than me right now, isnt that weird... When i break it down though, in this very moment, its just:Touch, taste, smell, vision, hearing, and thoughts - a few thoughts a second, coupled with intentions and automatic processes that tell my fingers where the keys are and how to type. Each thought is taking an assumption based on memories and information already stored in my brain. If my memories were me, and my thoughts were me, and my intentions to do things were me, i would have 3 "me's", because they are all happening back and forth back and forth constantly and are all clearly separate from one another

[zenkitties]

I and sometimes get that sense of I, usually in my head or around my face.

Just because there is a sense of something doesn't make it so. Take a rubber band ball for instance. It looks and feels like a ball, when in reality its just a bunch of bands wrapped around each other and the more you pull at it the more strings are shed. Finally to reveal this is nothing in the middle. It never was a ball, it only took the appearance. So go beyond that sense of okay so the sensation is here so that must mean I am here. It is not so.

It seems solid until you look at it, and then i cant find it in this present moment.

Right. There is no you there, you are already seeing the direct evidence of this.

is probably somewhere grouped obviously in the brain and it rides off this assumption that that is "me".

Oh, this is obvious to you? If it was obvious you wouldn't be questioning it. Are thoughts stored in the brain? if they were then the "me" must be there, because its a thought. investigate if the you is there? What gives you the idea it is there?

The thinker, the supposed doer is struggling to get this now. The same person who came to this website looking for relief. Idk where he is, i cant find him, and im talking about him in third person as if he is other than me right now, isnt that weird...

They always do struggle. who is the thinker, who is the one "thinking"? Is there really any thinker. You said you cannot find him so why say there is one if one cannot be found. That's like saying Santa Clause is real; never seeing him, and basing your conclusion off a bunch of conceptual thoughts of him.

If my memories were me, and my thoughts were me, and my intentions to do things were me, i would have 3 "me's", because they are all happening back and forth back and forth constantly and are all clearly separate from one another

Well its a good thing none of those things are you because one doesn't exist. Looking into all of those things and find the you, is there are you in direct experience of you in any of those experiences or is that all of what they are, just experiences happening?

Those three are not separate, same thing, just playing different roles. Kind of reminds me of humans beings. They work in much the same way. :)

What you and I are are not different, there is literally no separation between you and I. That's neither here nor there for now haha, we can talk about that if you wanted once you see this.

[SleeplessYogi117]

Just because there is a sense of something doesn't make it so. Take a rubber band ball for instance. It looks and feels like a ball, when in reality its just a bunch of bands wrapped around each other and the more you pull at it the more strings are shed. Finally to reveal this is nothing in the middle. It never was a ball, it only took the appearance. So go beyond that sense of okay so the sensation is here so that must mean I am here. It is not so.

This is true. Good analogy.

Oh, this is obvious to you? If it was obvious you wouldn't be questioning it. Are thoughts stored in the brain? if they were then the "me" must be there, because its a thought. investigate if the you is there? What gives you the idea it is there?

I think the thought "me" probably is somewhere in the brain. I cant find it though, everything just gets filtered through it though. My whole life has been conditioned that there is me here, that I want things, I have things, and I exist. It seems there must be someone generating these thoughts. But as ive observed, its not so. When i sit down and try to focus on the breath, thoughts proliferate from every direction. I'm not making these thoughts happen. They're just happening. If i were the one creating thoughts, I would have achieved one-pointed attention years ago.

They always do struggle. who is the thinker, who is the one "thinking"? Is there really any thinker. You said you cannot find him so why say there is one if one cannot be found. That's like saying Santa Clause is real; never seeing him, and basing your conclusion off a bunch of conceptual thoughts of him.

There is no one thinking. Its just thoughts happening. I'm beginning to get more of a hang of this. Its difficult to wrap "my" head around though. "I" is so ridiculously conditioned in "my" brain, its like the most instinctual thought.

Well its a good thing none of those things are you because one doesn't exist. Looking into all of those things and find the you, is there are you in direct experience of you in any of those experiences or is that all of what they are, just experiences happening?

They're just experiences happening. Each one is different and they're not related to eachother by a whole-entity to which the experiences are happening.

The self is resisting. The self doesnt want to die, is afraid to die, and doesnt want to give up control. How do i surrender it and see?

[zenkitties]

I think the thought "me" probably is somewhere in the brain.

The thought occurs that there is a me somewhere in the brain.

My whole life has been conditioned that there is me here, that I want things, I have things, and I exist. It seems there must be someone generating these thoughts. But as ive observed, its not so.

And so the story goes, thought just happens but doesn't see its a thought. Just like the eye can not see itself. It is the thought that says, "I see an eye." You ever read any insight of the Christ? He says that the left hand does not know of the right hands doing. This is the same thing here right now. That is direct experience that insight.

When i sit down and try to focus on the breath, thoughts proliferate from every direction. I'm not making these thoughts happen. They're just happening. If i were the one creating thoughts, I would have achieved one-pointed attention years ago.

Exactly right, Adyashanti actually made this same insight, if there were a controller of thoughts, then you would of easily slipped out of suffering by now under your own power. However there is no you to slip from thoughts, and so thoughts don't need to be taken as real. Therefore the story is just that a story that's truly happening to no one.

There is no one thinking. Its just thoughts happening. I'm beginning to get more of a hang of this. Its difficult to wrap "my" head around though. "I" is so ridiculously conditioned in "my" brain, its like the most instinctual thought.

who is getting the hand of it? Another thought is getting the hang of what. There is nothing to wrap your head around because there is no one to wrap its head around anything. It isn't possible for thought to know itself. for it is only another thought that claims it knows.

They're just experiences happening. Each one is different and they're not related to eachother by a whole-entity to which the experiences are happening.

yes! just experiences happening, whether it be touch, taste, hearing, sight. They are just happening and then thought claims them as its own and says, "I see this". "This is this and it feels this way." But if its directly experienced putting thoughts aside or allowing them to pass you'll find that its just those expressions happening without a doer.

The self is resisting. The self doesnt want to die, is afraid to die, and doesnt want to give up control. How do i surrender it and see?

Here is the good and bad news, you cannot will surrender, because there is no one to surrender. Surrender just happens again, by just seeing there is no one to surrender, allows surrender the chance to slip in there and take everything away. Let the self know that it won't die like it thinks it will, the thought still operates just as a thought should. Also thoughts probably won't stop and that's okay too, they don't need to stop.

There is no one to give up control, although it feels that way, just see that there was never control to begin with. There was never control only the thought of control.

[SleeplessYogi117]

who is getting the hand of it? Another thought is getting the hang of what. There is nothing to wrap your head around because there is no one to wrap its head around anything. It isn't possible for thought to know itself. for it is only another thought that claims it knows.

I guess, no one is getting the hang of it? Are thoughts/mind becoming self aware?

I still feel they are strung together in some way though, like how come this mind, this body, these emotions can be felt but yours cannot be? Its hard to see how things can be experienced when there is nothing experiencing it.

[zenkitties]

I guess, no one is getting the hang of it? Are thoughts/mind becoming self aware?

I still feel they are strung together in some way though, like how come this mind, this body, these emotions can be felt but yours cannot be? Its hard to see how things can be experienced when there is nothing experiencing it.

All just story my friend. There doesn't have to be someone stringing together thoughts. Thoughts feel strung together because the I thought is taking claim to them, other than that, it is just one thought after the other based on past memory, belief, ideas, conditionings, and environment.

Can you see how all of the above just comes down to just more story. It leads nowhere, which is why the questions don't really mean anything, they are just running around the fact that there is no you.

You already have the evidence that there is no direct experience of an I outside of the labeling there is something there which you've established for yourself that it is not so.

like how come this mind, this body, these emotions can be felt but yours cannot be?

Avoiding what you and I are investigating, however the question will be answered. There is no controller of these things, the you doesn't actually know these things are true, its making the assumption of there being and you and me. You and I aren't separate. These sensations and those sensations has no owner therefore they are both felt and not felt. When I say they are both but neither, it actually points to that they are the same, there is no in here or out there. Those distinctions are empty, just like any other thought.