Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

[mountainbykr]

Hi Burma,
I couldn't get 20 minutes alone or cook a meal yet, man am I a busy dad, but I did find some alone time this am.

Stuff was just happening. Breathing, noises, cats, itches, light, all within experience or awareness. things were just happening, there was no director or orchestrator.

However, when the body and human does stuff, like goes to yoga class, or gets gas in a car, all within experience, the human shifts experience - its constantly evolving - and thus experience is co created by all within experience including this human - no ? And because its so vast and complex its not possible to control experience, but the human is an active agent as a creator no ?

Mike

[dottybb]

Hi Mike,

I'm glad you are able to recognize this:

Stuff was just happening. Breathing, noises, cats, itches, light, all within experience or awareness. things were just happening, there was no director or orchestrator.

I'm not sure where you are going with this? You speak of the "human" as possibly a separate "me" or "I", is this true?

However, when the body and human does stuff, like goes to yoga class, or gets gas in a car, all within experience, the human shifts experience - its constantly evolving - and thus experience is co created by all within experience including this human - no ? And because its so vast and complex its not possible to control experience, but the human is an active agent as a creator no ?

When you have DE there is no one shifting anything. Thoughts may arise and interpret what is happening. Is that what you are saying?

There is no controller/doer of thoughts. Explanations of what is happening are generated via concepts/thoughts and support the idea of a separate self.

the human is an active agent as a creator

I don't understand where this is coming from? In which part of the body does this "active agent human" reside? Isn't this part of the illusion you want to expose?


I have already asked this:

Can you notice the urge coming from this illusionary "I" or "Me" to interpret what is happening. In other words, consider there doesn't need to be a filtering process constantly keeping vigil. A door slams---BANG--just the bang is heard---then the thoughts flood in to interpret the sound. Same with taste, smell, seeing, and the trickery of thoughts and stories from arising emotions.

As you are sitting here right now, what is happening without "filtering" and "interpreting"? Is it screen light/ squiggles/ thoughts/ breathing/ hands touching keyboard/eyes blinking--- all the un-divided happening as experience?


My replies and questions posed are tools to help guide you. The one above can be answered in a short time. Please do this.
As your guide I can point the way, ask questions, and only you can take the journey.

Earlier you wrote:

Doesn't this human have a higher level of conscious where it can over ride these mechanisms/desires/urges ?

Perhaps you are still holding onto this? Or hoping, expecting this to be true?
Is there a higher level of conscious? Where is it?

Best to you,
Burma

[mountainbykr]

Hi Burma,

You wrote,

As you are sitting here right now, what is happening without "filtering" and "interpreting"? Is it screen light/ squiggles/ thoughts/ breathing/ hands touching keyboard/eyes blinking--- all the un-divided happening as experience?

Humans walking around, light, sounds from the vents, doors closing, sensations from chair and desk. Sensations of heat arise. More sounds arise. Feelings of sadness. Smells arise. sensations of pain. thoughts arise as an interpretation of experience.

You wrote,

Can you notice the urge coming from this illusionary "I" or "Me" to interpret what is happening.

Yes, its strong. So much efforting has been programmed.

You wrote,
Perhaps you are still holding onto this? Or hoping, expecting this to be true?
Is there a higher level of conscious? Where is it?

These are thoughts and or beliefs. Much of this is conditioning from spiritual groups, not my direct experience. The truth in this moment is there remains a direct experience. Thoughts of safety and familiarity arise with these thoughts of higher consciousness. Yes thoughts keep arising connected to these thoughts or beliefs. I cannot find higher levels of consciousness, or a doer, these are just thoughts.
Mike

[dottybb]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for exploring and reporting:

These are thoughts and or beliefs. Much of this is conditioning from spiritual groups, not my direct experience. The truth in this moment is there remains a direct experience. Thoughts of safety and familiarity arise with these thoughts of higher consciousness. Yes thoughts keep arising connected to these thoughts or beliefs. I cannot find higher levels of consciousness, or a doer, these are just thoughts.

I'm piecing together all that we have explored and sense you are ready to review this check list. Please read through and let me know which number is not clear yet.

1) That there is no inherent self controlling the body (or that 'I am moving the body' is just an idea only)

2) That there is no inherent self choosing what the body does (or that 'I am choosing what to do is just an idea only)

3) That there is no inherent self witnessing thoughts or imagination (or that 'I am thinking thoughts' is just an idea only)

4) Just like no control over the body, there is no control over thoughts ('I can choose what to think' is an idea only).

5) That there isn't a separate self experiencing (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching etc or that 'I am looking', 'I am feeling' etc is an idea only).

6) That there is no entity 'I'/ BODY i.e. 'this body is seeing', 'this body is feeling' these are thought/ideas only- (LU does not suggest the body does not exist)

Having explored LU guidance you now know: without referring to thought or memory, there is immediate present unfolding, pure experiencing without any intermediary of a separate "self", "me", "I".

Thanks,
Burma

[mountainbykr]

Hi Burma,

You wrote:

I'm piecing together all that we have explored and sense you are ready to review this check list. Please read through and let me know which number is not clear yet.

1) That there is no inherent self controlling the body (or that 'I am moving the body' is just an idea only)

2) That there is no inherent self choosing what the body does (or that 'I am choosing what to do is just an idea only)

3) That there is no inherent self witnessing thoughts or imagination (or that 'I am thinking thoughts' is just an idea only)

4) Just like no control over the body, there is no control over thoughts ('I can choose what to think' is an idea only).

5) That there isn't a separate self experiencing (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching etc or that 'I am looking', 'I am feeling' etc is an idea only).

6) That there is no entity 'I'/ BODY i.e. 'this body is seeing', 'this body is feeling' these are thought/ideas only- (LU does not suggest the body does not exist)

These are all clear in this moment. And this clarity has been present at times during this process, and at times it isn't, and when it isn't I notice thoughts and thinking and a desire to debate some of this. I am laughing now as a write this. The clarity of where this desire is coming from is clearer now.

[dottybb]

Dear Mike,

Congratulations!

You are at the Gate.

(FYI--There are very well managed LU support sites for those who are "post-Gated".)

Here are the final questions.

Take you time in answering.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer with as much detail as possible.

As part of the confirmation process, I will share your responses with other Guides and see if they have any questions.

So happy for you,

Burma

[mountainbykr]

Hi Burma,

You

wrote,
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

1. There is no separate self, and there never was.

You wrote,

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

2. The illusion of separate self is a mind created illusionary experience. My experience is it arises when fear is present or threatening beliefs/thoughts arise (I am not loveable, not good enough, not safe, etc) – usually connected to way long ago child hood experiences that threatened my sense of safety. Safety from being taken care of by mom (not loveable, not enough), and safety in context of if I am not loveable mom wont keep me safe. Thoughts arise that the mind creates a process that creates the illusion that I am not loveable, because that’s more safe than a belief than mom sometimes wont be able to keep me safe, so it must have been my fault (not good enough) that she didn’t keep me feeling safe. So my mind created the illusionary belief that mom will always keep me safe if I can just be good enough and loveable. That’s not true. Moms do what moms do – their best – which may or may not keep their child safe at all times in a world that can at times be unsafe. Its also more tolerable to create a sense of separateness from an unsafe world as a way to manage the threat – if I am separate from others/universe, when they get big and scary or are not there for me – I am still ok – because I am separate and safe from them. This illusionary experience of separateness keeps us feeling safe, and in control – when in reality – there is no control – just thoughts/concepts/structures that exist to perpetuate the illusion that there is an “I” in control.

You wrote,

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

3. I see now the depth of thinking that defends against believing that there isn’t a separate self…..but….what about…how can this be….. Thoughts still arise that want to argue this – and I am better at noticing them – and keeping some humor about them. I can now see the justifications, defense arguments, as just thoughts created by the mind. The amount of illusionary beliefs and material that reinforces this belief that is all inside experience is a bit profound. A thought arises that it must be greater here in the USA than in other countries. A thought arises that programming upon programming of humans to reinforce the separateness in others too – and programming upon programming in media to reinforce this too and a thought arises of preying on this as well. The difference is there is more clarity on direct experience – the difference between d.E. and interpretations and thoughts. If I keep coming back to d.E. it simplifies any confusion and helps see through thoughts (arguments, etc). It feels freeing, out of control, sometimes scary.

You wrote,

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

4. I was able to see thoughts as arising in resistance to accepting d.E. and how much of experience is just happening, and much of these happenings are from programming, are habituated, etc. I kept trying to reference the experience to something, somebody, - but this reference point didn’t exist. It couldn’t be found.

You wrote,

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decision
My experience is that all is just happening and its some combination of thoughts, emotions, sensations and just being here now. When safety and security are present, thoughts are fewer and efforting isn’t happening, and sensations are more present. When fear or confusion is present, then lots of thoughts arise, and less sensations. When sadness or hurt or loneliness arises, thoughts often arise as well. When safety and presence arise, usually, deciding, just happens without thought – and the happening just occurs. When threat, fear, worry arise, then many thoughts arise too. Deciding can occur with many thoughts present, and happens with thoughts about ‘what is best’ which usually leads to more thoughts on best. The thoughts that arise from decision and choosing are often clustered around programmed beliefs from parents, society, the old identity of Mike, etc. However, its an illusion that this ‘choosing/decision’ is actually so, its just old programs creating thoughts – just like code from a software program. There is no I in control, just the program/software which is just happening in experience. So all this happening, deciding, choosing can either happen from a programming basis – one mostly that is protecting against fear, or it can just happen without thoughts/programs if there is safety and security.

Intention
If intention arises to let thoughts come and go this can happen within experience. If intention is set to use the mind to engage with thoughts, there doesn’t seem to be a choice how to use the mind, its already full of beliefs and programs on how to create thoughts. If intention is set to relax the mind and let thoughts come and go, then happening just occurs with less thoughts, it just happens. So the illusion of control is an illusion of the mind. Are our intentions are influenced by our beliefs – are they thoughts ? If we say, yes intentions can be set to use the mind or not – in either case, the outcomes are not in control, as we don’t control our thoughts, nor is there control when there are no thoughts. It appears that even intention could be an illusion – where does intention come from – this knowingness/intuition – or just another thought - one that doesn’t from the mind but somewhere else – as thoughts are locationless ?

Intention usually is followed by things happening. They just start happening, mostly. The less thinking the better usually.

Free Will
Free will is interpreted as a being that is free to be the natural self without thoughts. With thoughts must include programming, which means its not really free. Free of all thoughts and programming would be my experience of Free Will. A feeling of security and safety is usually accompanied by presence and less thinking.

Choosing
The thoughts that arise from choosing are often clustered around programmed beliefs from parents, society, the old identity of Mike, etc. However, its an illusion that this ‘choosing’ is actually so, its just old programs creating thoughts – just like code from a software program. There is no I in control, just the program/software which is just happening in experience. So all this happening, choosing can either happen from a programming basis – one mostly that is protecting against fear, or it can just happen without thoughts/programs if there is safety and security.

Control
If there are no thoughts, then there is just experience, no control, things just happen. There is no control. If there are thoughts, from the mind, these cannot be controlled, and are mostly based on beliefs from others, and society, etc. They are coming from old programs mostly. So again, there is no control.

6) Anything to add?

Experience also includes just a knowingness without thoughts sometimes – and this occurs with presence, safety, no efforting. With presence and aliveness being present usually happening occurs without effort, joy arises, fewer thoughts, little worry. Thoughts arise sometimes that there must be a source of this knowingness, thoughts from previous programming: collective unconscious, source, etc. The experience is just a knowing, it just occurs, and an acceptance there is no need for thinking to have safety in the presence of knowing, trust. Experience is happening all the time, and experience is different when there are lots of thoughts, versus not so much thoughts. Thoughts can impose programming/beliefs from other sources into experience, and usually it’s a sense of safety that is associated with no thoughts versus thoughts. Thoughts can introject into a thoughtless experience and make it full of thoughts. Is this knowingness just a culmination of all experience and what should be done in the moment ?

Is this knowingness just a thought, coming from some locationaless point, does it just happen , does it come from our interconnectedness ?

Thank you Burma!
Mike

[dottybb]

Hi Mike,

Other guides have asked about this:

Free of all thoughts and programming would be my experience of Free Will.

Please clarify:
To whom would this free will belong, and who would exert it?
And who would be "Free of all thoughts"?

Thanks!

Burma

[mountainbykr]

Hi Burma,

You wrote,

Other guides have asked about this:

Free of all thoughts and programming would be my experience of Free Will.

Please clarify:
To whom would this free will belong, and who would exert it?
And who would be "Free of all thoughts"?

Yes, there it is again. Sneaky. Experience can have thoughts, and thoughts are not controllable, and not necessarily true. One of the most embedded is this belief of a I or me. As I type this, let arise what will when Free Will is in thought, and then other thoughts arise. Freedom from believing there is an I or me, and all the efforting, thinking, that arises from those beliefs. When the belief/thought of separate I or me is dropped, there is just experience in this moment and there is much less thinking, things are just happening, no efforting is happening. Thoughts arise, that free will is what is naturally here when thoughts about a separate self are dropped. The belief about a separate self is often present when there is lots of thinking about what to do, how to do, trying, etc.

Free will at least what arises when those words are present, is always here, its thoughts about a separate self that get in the way. Free will doesn't belong to anyone, anybody, or a someone, its just here. Thoughts that are arising about the words free are similar to thoughts arising about natural presence, aliveness. Its just here.

Experience can be free of all thoughts, but often has thoughts. Free of all thoughts, could be a thought too. Again, the sneaky illusion that there is a somebody who has or doesn't have thoughts. Thoughts come and go within experience. Thoughts arise about all the conditioning about thoughts. Laughter arising, thoughts about how crazy all the looping/referencing/reinforcing within experience of thoughts and identifications, etc. The feeling of exhaustion of all this arises, thoughts about just relaxing into experience.

[dottybb]

Hi Mike,

Is there any separate self or entity that has "free will"?

Is "free will" a thought? A concept?

When the verb "has" is used the implication is: a "haver"exists. Is this true in regard to the question below.

Yes, language is very tricky, AND it helps reveal where you are in holding the illusion of the separate self.

To whom would this free will belong, and who would exert it?
And who would be "Free of all thoughts"?

Thanks,
Burma

[mountainbykr]

HI Burma,

You wrote,

Is there any separate self or entity that has "free will"?

No, lol.

You wrote,

Is "free will" a thought? A concept?

Yes, of course. Said differently, is free will a sensation, or aliveness ? No. I cant find it! Its a thought. Freedom would also be a thought - because freedom implies an I or me being free from something. Freedom is not a sensation or aliveness either.

You wrote,

When the verb "has" is used the implication is: a "haver"exists. Is this true in regard to the question below.
Yes, language is very tricky, AND it helps reveal where you are in holding the illusion of the separate self.
To whom would this free will belong, and who would exert it?
And who would be "Free of all thoughts"?

Free will does not belong to any I or me. There is no I or me to exert free will.
There is no I or me to be free of all thoughts. There is just thoughts, sensations, and aliveness within experience.

Thank you,
Mike

[dottybb]

Dear Mike,

You are now confirmed. And have passed through......paradoxically there is no self, I, or me per se who passed anything!!!

Thank you for taking the journey and allowing me to be your guide. You are the first person I have successfully guided.


If you give me your Facebook name, I can assist you getting information regarding all the LU FB groups. From my own experience, I have found this invaluable for deepening all that LU offers. If at some point in the future you feel moved to do so, I highly recommend becoming a guide. It is most rewarding, and challenging.

You have seen.....

Burma

[mountainbykr]

Thank you Burma. Yay!

I am on Facebook, Michael Kreder, in Colorado.

Look forward to connecting with the groups on Facebook