Seeing What is True

[Lightwins]

Hi Bodhi,
I am having trouble with this site. I just posted a long response that got deleted when the site suddenly shut down and went back to login. So, I will try again...

If this "I" is illusory Lynn, then any choice and control it appears to have can only be illusory too. How does this statement sit with you?

Yes, there APPEARS to be an "I" making choices, but upon close examination it cannot be found. I only find Awareness and all that appears in Awareness and is not separate from it. There is choice happening and no separate entity in control that is separate and autonomous from Awareness or Being. So, as far as I know now, all there is to "do" is to just BE and allow the show to go on as it is. And there isn't an "I" do do that either.

Can liberation happen to an "I" or is it that liberation is what remains when there is no "I"? An "I", by its own definition, is limited and captive in the realm of "I" and "not I". Hence an "I" can never be free :)

As far as I know now, liberation is seeing that we are already free and there is no "I" to liberate. My intention is to see this as deeply as possible, not just conceptually.

As you look with the clarity you have gained, and you can see that the "I" is illusory, then what has changed besides the perspective? As you rightly point out the choices just happen and things carry on much the same as before. What is changing is that Lynn is seeing the illusory nature of the "I" that was taking credit for the choices before.

Yes, it is not so scary to let go of control when I see that I never had it to begin with! That makes it so much more simple. It was impossible when I believed I was a spiritual self trying to let go of control. And seeing what is actually TRUE is nothing to be afraid of. The Truth is not scary. But this must be seen more deeply that just conceptually or the mind stream will try to hold on to the illusion of control. And it seems to have a sophisticated intelligence that is always trying to keep that illusion going. It seems to be some kind of movement of self-preservation.

Warmest regards,
Lynn

[b0dhi]

Hi Lynn

I am having trouble with this site. I just posted a long response that got deleted when the site suddenly shut down and went back to login. So, I will try again...

Sorry about this issue. Sometimes when you are replying to a post and the internet connection between you and the LU site drops (for whatever reason), you can lose the post you are authoring. The workaround is to write in a word processor or text editor on your computer and then post the reply with that as a "backup".

Hope this helps :)

As far as I know now, liberation is seeing that we are already free and there is no "I" to liberate. My intention is to see this as deeply as possible, not just conceptually.

At present do you feel you have a conceptual understanding of this rather than a deeper knowing?

And seeing what is actually TRUE is nothing to be afraid of. The Truth is not scary.

Very heartwarming to hear this :)

the mind stream will try to hold on to the illusion of control. And it seems to have a sophisticated intelligence that is always trying to keep that illusion going. It seems to be some kind of movement of self-preservation.

More "causes and conditions"? Even when the illusion is seen through there is still the momentum of the "I" present. However, what is not present is the full "all in all" investment in the reality and independence of this "I".

So Lynn tell me, what makes you think you have not seen the truth?

[Lightwins]

Even when the illusion is seen through there is still the momentum of the "I" present. However, what is not present is the full "all in all" investment in the reality and independence of this "I".
So Lynn tell me, what makes you think you have not seen the truth?

It seems that I think that I have not fully seen through the illusion because the momentum of the "I" is still present and although I don't have a FULL investment in that, I still buy into it every day. Also, I have an expectation that if it is seen through thoroughly there will be more peace. In some ways, I am actually less at peace since doing this inquiry. I don't FEEL liberated. The conditioned sense of identity is disturbed by a growing knowing that it doesn't have control. I find this world disturbing and not having control in a disturbing world is upsetting. Yet, I do have enough realization of what is, and always has been, in control to know better, but it is still stirred up. And, I still find myself reacting to things in a big way, with investment. I believe that if I saw the truth deeply enough, that would not be happening.

[b0dhi]

Hi Lynn

Good to hear from you again, as always :)

Also, I have an expectation that if it is seen through thoroughly there will be more peace. In some ways, I am actually less at peace since doing this inquiry.

Thanks for this observation, please elaborate the expectation of an increased amount of peace for my benefit. What are the reasons you would expect to be more at peace?

The conditioned sense of identity is disturbed by a growing knowing that it doesn't have control. I find this world disturbing and not having control in a disturbing world is upsetting.

Is this one of the causes of a disturbed sense of peace? If so, is it a primary cause?

And, I still find myself reacting to things in a big way, with investment. I believe that if I saw the truth deeply enough, that would not be happening.

Please do give me some examples of the situations so I can understand this better.

Thanks Lynn - sending much love your way.

[Lightwins]

Please elaborate the expectation of an increased amount of peace for my benefit. What are the reasons you would expect to be more at peace?

If I were truly free of identification with a separate self, I expect that I would feel more free and at peace because all suffering is created by this mis-identification.

Lately, I am having a difficult time because painful aspects of my trauma/conditioning have been activated. It is challenging to not identify with that, but I am not identifying with it fully. The momentum of conditioning continues, as does some identification with it. Yet, there is more clear insight into this than ever before and less investment.

Also, my mind is stirred up by seeing there is no control. My mind (thought stream) doesn't know what there is to trust, and sees the world as disturbed and out of balance. So, I keep coming back to just resting in the Silent Unknown. I think that is where attention will rest more and more after the mind stream gets done having a tantrum about there being no control. :)

I still find myself reacting to things in a big way, with investment. I believe that if I saw the truth deeply enough, that would not be happening.

Please do give me some examples of the situations so I can understand this better.

I recently had an interaction with friends that triggered my trauma/conditioning in a way it hadn't been in a long time. The reactions were strong, so I identified with it some and believed it some. Yet, I was also able to have some distance and a lot of insight. I learned a great deal from it and feel more free of these patterns as a result. I looked closely this morning and saw that all this "just happened." Triggering happened due to all the conditions of the situation, taking responsibility just happened, gaining insight just happened, learning from it just happened...there was no Lynn who can take credit or blame.

What I am interested in now is how to resolve my conditioning. My understanding of that now is that as it will resolve/dissolve/transform when I stop trying to do anything about it by seeing there is no "I" that can do anything about it. Then there is just "rest and allow" the conditioning to unfold. It is challenging for someone who is a psychotherapist for to see there is nothing else that can really be done to become free of conditioning. However, I have been seeing this for some time—it is just becoming more clear. And the recent experience of conditioning being triggered and played out and being with it more consciously is part of that.

Thank you Bodhi for hanging in there with me on this. I am being as honest as possible. It is important to me to go beyond my conceptual understanding of this into true liberation.

Warm, loving regards,
Lynn

[b0dhi]

Hiya Lynn :)

Glad to hear from you.

So, I keep coming back to just resting in the Silent Unknown. I think that is where attention will rest more and more after the mind stream gets done having a tantrum about there being no control. :)

Yes - I'm glad you can see that this is just a tantrum. What you have here is the momentum of conditioning creating a bunch of thoughts/feelings that were previously invested in. Probably screaming to have themselves heard since they're no longer getting the same attention as before ;)

Not the first or last time this will happen, decades of conditioning won't leave in a few days or weeks. What I am interested in is knowing if this conditioning creates a real self, or is it that the self suffering the conditioning is still seen as fictional?

Let's take this opportunity to look at this thing called mind. Can you experience mind? Or is it that "mind" is a story of collective thought?

If it is the latter, then is "mind" also not a fabrication, like "self"? If so, please let me know what "Suffering" is.

I learned a great deal from it and feel more free of these patterns as a result. I looked closely this morning and saw that all this "just happened." Triggering happened due to all the conditions of the situation, taking responsibility just happened, gaining insight just happened, learning from it just happened...there was no Lynn who can take credit or blame.

Beautifully and eloquently put :)

Will there ever again be a Lynn of a permanent sort to take credit or blame?

What I am interested in now is how to resolve my conditioning. My understanding of that now is that as it will resolve/dissolve/transform when I stop trying to do anything about it by seeing there is no "I" that can do anything about it.

Seeing through the "I" is a critical first step. It really is a first step. Once the illusion is seen through fully, then a new way of engaging with life opens up - as you are observing. Different people have different paths post gate to deepen their knowing and seeing. This is outside of the scope of this conversation, however you are on the right track. The path after the gate will be your own unfolding in whichever way will work for you best.

Let's get past the gate first, eh?

Thank you Bodhi for hanging in there with me on this. I am being as honest as possible. It is important to me to go beyond my conceptual understanding of this into true liberation.

Most welcome Lynn.

My question to you is this - only a "self" can suffer because the self believes itself to be separate and therefore vulnerable. In which way are you separate? Does a separate "Lynn" exist?

[Lightwins]

Hi Bodhi,

Let's take this opportunity to look at this thing called mind. Can you experience mind? Or is it that "mind" is a story of collective thought?
If it is the latter, then is "mind" also not a fabrication, like "self"? If so, please let me know what "Suffering" is.

Yes, the mind is a story of collective thought. And that includes mental processes such as denial, repression, projection, manipulation, disassociation, passive aggression, etc, which are all forms of resistance to what is. Resistance to what is = suffering. Suffering is experienced as painful thoughts, feelings and sensations that are identified with. It is not the situation or condition that causes suffering, it is the resistance + identification that causes suffering.

My question to you is this - only a "self" can suffer because the self believes itself to be separate and therefore vulnerable. In which way are you separate? Does a separate "Lynn" exist?

The resistance + identification is what creates the sense of separation and vulnerability. A separate "Lynn" only appears to exist as a bundle of all the thought processes, plus feelings and sensations that go with them, plus conditioning and personality. All of that together really appears to be a self. But each time I look for that self, I only find the presence of silent, still, pure Awareness...And then the sense of self gets created again, and again, and again, and is seen through again and again and again.

Thanks and love,
Lynn

[b0dhi]

Hey Lynn

Good work there!

It is not the situation or condition that causes suffering, it is the resistance + identification that causes suffering.

The resistance + identification is what creates the sense of separation and vulnerability.

Excellent insights here. This "resistance + identification" -> is there someone doing it or is it just happening?

Do you have control over the resistance? Do you have control over the identification?

If you do then you could will it away and back, right?

Look at a tree, with its leaves swaying in the wind. Does the tree have a choice about the swaying of the leaves?

Does "Lynn" have a choice about the "resistance and identification"?

Much love :)

[Lightwins]

Hi Bodhi,

Do you have control over the resistance? Do you have control over the identification?
Does "Lynn" have a choice about the "resistance and identification"?

No, there does not appear to be any choice involved in resistance or identification. Therefore, there must not be any choice in letting go of resistance or identification. And no control over whether or not it is seen through it, or whether there is suffering or peace. This brings me to "now what?" Nothing to do and no one to do it leaves me nowhere!

[b0dhi]

This brings me to "now what?" Nothing to do and no one to do it leaves me nowhere!

Is there a "me" to let go of?

[Lightwins]

Is there a "me" to let go of?

No, it seems that it is not a matter of letting go of something, but rather SEEING that it was never there to begin with. However, even though that is now seen to some extent, the habit of labeling thoughts, feelings sensation, etc as a "me" continues to occur. It is a very ingrained habit. But when inquired into, it is seen that the "me" is only a label. When looking for a "me" all I find is the silent, empty presence of Awareness.

[b0dhi]

Brilliant work Lynn

No, it seems that it is not a matter of letting go of something, but rather SEEING that it was never there to begin with.

This says it all..perfectly :)

So speak to me from this perspective that there has never been a self to begin with:
Who has been suffering?
Who has been in control and in charge of life?
Who has ownership of thoughts, decisions?
Who has not been at peace?
Who has been resisting?

I look forward to hearing from you.

[Lightwins]

Who has been suffering?
Who has been in control and in charge of life?
Who has ownership of thoughts, decisions?
Who has not been at peace?
Who has been resisting?

The more I look for the one who suffers, is in control, has ownership of thoughts, etc. the less I find. There is only an aware presence, not a self. I have shifted from the thought/mind stream being in reaction to this to being more at peace. And this is just happening. There is a subtle, but powerful, shift in experience. Deeper peace, deeper resting, more presence, and more of a sense of freedom.

I am also seeing that "no self" is not the entire truth.
There is no self.
There is a self.
Both are true and neither are true.

The bundle of thoughts, feelings, sensations, perceptions, and conditioning which has been labeled a self by thought and has become an energetic vortex that is organized in the body as a set of contractions and felt sense of separation. It is not a self as an independent entity, but it is experienced as a self just as the body is experienced as a sold form when it is actually only space and energy. So, "no self" is not the whole truth. There is a patterning of energy that does exist and operates as a self, which is needed to function just as a body is needed to function. It is not an autonomous entity that has control over the life, but it is a unique expression of the Beingness that does move this life, as well as a function that is needed for human being to operate in the world. We just need to get it that it is fundamentally not who we are.

Thanks and love,
Lynn

[b0dhi]

Much love Lynn - you are astounding :)

We just need to get it that it is fundamentally not who we are.

How certain are you? Any niggling doubts or concerns?

[Lightwins]

How certain are you? Any niggling doubts or concerns?

I have been seriously considering this for several days. I am quite certain that there is no separate self. Essentially, I am what I call Awareness, not a cluster of thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc. which thought labels a self. What I am is timeless and ever-present. I do not come and go. I have no limits. I was not born and I will not die. And what I am is not affected by any of the appearances that occur within Awareness even though they are not separate from Awareness, and are ultimately made of Awareness. What I am is free and always has been. It is a mis-perception, an illusion made up by thought, that there is a self independent of the ever-present Awareness of Being.

In gratitude,
Lynn