Newcomer, welcome here

[Nick]

If you are looking for guidance, and prepared to be 100% honest and open, please jump in. Let's end the search together.

[xthinker88]

With my birthday today and independence day tomorrow, it might be a fortuitous time to make a break for freedom. I'm not really sure that I get the whole concept of this even though I've read throughout the site and most of the ebook. Unlike many of the others it seems, I've not spent decades meditating. I have practiced aikido for the last 2 1/2 years and have found a few times of thoughtlessness or mushin in my practice. When I have tried to meditate, i seem to be able to drop easily into that state but it doesn't last long.

I guess what attracts me to this effort is the idea of freedom. As I understand it, seeing this reality sets one free to make more conscious choices and not just react to random thoughts or desires. Thoughts, emotions, desires still bubble up but they don't cause a reaction without conscious awareness and decision. Although the philosopher in me wonders "who" would be making those choices and why if there is no "I". My biggest concern seems to be the question of how and why does one continue to act at all after this experience. If there is no point then why do anything? How does this path not lead to complete apathy, aimlessness, lethargy, nihilism ...? My other concern is that I tend to intellectualize a lot so I'm concerned that I could intellectually accept the idea that there is no "I" without actually experiencing it as a reality or recognizing when/if I do.

I have work today so will be able to respond only periodically today but should have more time tomorrow. Shall we???

--- Mark

[Nick]

Mark, its great to meet you, let's get started. I'm in USA Eastern time zone (GMT -5) and I will try to check in once or twice a day. I like your first post alot. Well written with good punctuation, spelling, and capitalization. Don't worry we'll have you typing in forum-speak in no time. First lesson, forget about any difference b/w 'you're' and 'your' - LOL

I think that's great that Aikido sparked your interest. I used to practice it too for a few years but I got hurt and quit about 10 years ago. A really cool art. For me too, it was physical exercise that sort of 'popped' things open. I know what you mean about finding yourself in a weird state - "in the zone" as they say. Then you're like - oh crap what was that? I'm glad you found your way here.

First off let me say that what we are after here is not a 'state' like the mu-shin you have described. It is not bliss, rapture, mystical enlightenment, or anything like that. although these states may come, they will also go away. You can enjoy them, but recognize that liberation is not a state. What we are after is seeing the truth, the facts of life and existence as they have always been. Simple and easy. One trick is that when we're starting out, we think that we're going to cause a change or an event, like a transformation. That's the trick, nothing changes. That's why its the gateless gate. anyway, enough blabbing, you'll see it soon.

You did a great job outlining your expectations in your first post. You have doubts, of course, which is why we're here. You have fears - "apathy, aimlessness, lethargy, nihilism". You seem to fear lack of control, lack of the ability to make choices. Let's look at your current experience right now, and see if you are in control, or not.

Take some time to look at your thoughts.
Where do the thoughts come from?
Do you know what thought is going to come next?
Can you stop a thought if you want to?
Is there a "thinker" somewhere, thinking all these thoughts?

Look. Get back to me when ready.

Your friend,

Nick

[xthinker88]

One trick is that when we're starting out, we think that we're going to cause a change or an event, like a transformation. That's the trick, nothing changes. That's why its the gateless gate. anyway, enough blabbing, you'll see it soon.

If nothing changes, then how are you sure that it's happened?

Working on your questions and will report back later. My problem is that I think I know the "right" answers but that doesn't seem to be enough to real-ize the truth.

I'm also in the eastern US.

[Nick]

If nothing changes, then how are you sure that it's happened?

you will know.

and you have honesty and integrity on your side, so you'll let me know. there's no need to bullshit yourself or convince anyone. take your time, but be prepared, and give yourself some credit. you are as worthy as any saint or sage or sensei. many many people have seen this, and it doesn't take long if you're ripe. in the internet age its so easy to get in touch and share thoughts, you don't have to run away to a mountain monastery to find the truth.

i say nothing changes, i mean that there is recognition of the way things are, and have always been. its like a little boy discovering that santa isn't real. nothing changes. it was always his dad dressed up in a suit. but the belief is dropped, and so even though in reality nothing has changed, the experience is different because now the child understands the truth and can act accordingly. and of course, this doesn't mean that he can no longer have fun at christmastime - decorating, singing songs, giving gifts, and going along with the santa story, because it makes the younger children happy.

looking forward to your answers,

Nick

[xthinker88]

Take some time to look at your thoughts.

I'm not sure that I'm looking correctly. When I seem to focus on them, my mind goes into one of those easy but silent states.

Where do the thoughts come from?

It seems as though some come from other related thoughts. Like if I'm thinking about a work problem. One group of thoughts will follow a theme of that problem. Others seem to be in response to environmental stimuli ("squirrel!" or look at those legs). Still others seem to be relatively random - maybe from the subconscious.

Do you know what thought is going to come next?

No. This seems pretty clear. In fact, if you could make the needed thought come up while, say, solving a math problem, then presumably you could solve the problem quicker. So it seems that one can neither predict the next thought nor control what it will be or even whether it will be useful to the problem at hand.

Can you stop a thought if you want to?

Maybe. But maybe it's not so much stopping as pushing it aside, ignoring it, or drowning it out. Like the person refusing to listen and putting their hands over their ears and going "lalalalalalala".

Is there a "thinker" somewhere, thinking all these thoughts?

Obviously the approved answer here would be no but I don't see it yet. Sorry. It still feels like I'm the thinker.

[Nick]

I'm not sure that I'm looking correctly. When I seem to focus on them, my mind goes into one of those easy but silent states.

nothing special to do, just ordinary mind, thinking and investigating. forget about meditation temporarily. its ok to get fired up, feel pissed, use anger and frustration to fuel the looking. dont tolerate laziness or dishonesty.

It seems as though some come from other related thoughts. Like if I'm thinking about a work problem. One group of thoughts will follow a theme of that problem.

ok it does seem that way. but where as in where? where are thoughts located? where do they happen, where are they experienced?

maybe it's not so much stopping as pushing it aside, ignoring it, or drowning it out.?

ok, so try this experiment right now - whatever you do, don't think about a banana.
try it for a minute. got it?
its cheesy but gets the point across sometimes.

thoughts may slow down or stop sometimes, like in the meditative states you've enjoyed. but its not YOU stopping them. its not YOU meditating. meditation is happening like the thoughts happen. the thoughts will start again.

Sorry. It still feels like I'm the thinker.

ok, so try to find this thinker, try to locate it, get a fix on it. this is the I, me, or self that we are talking about. really look. get pissed, and describe what happens.
ask yourself - what comes first during "my experience" of life, the experience, or the my/i/self?
i say that the my/i/self is a label after the experience. its a thought. what do you say?

Keep going. Look at what's happening right here and now. Use your physical eyes, even. See. You got this.

Nick

[xthinker88]

ok, so try this experiment right now - whatever you do, don't think about a banana.
try it for a minute. got it?
its cheesy but gets the point across sometimes.

Of course I immediately thought of a banana. And then a cheesy banana (kind of a gross combo). :)

So, the thought of the banana

Letters/ symbols (a label that in English signifies banana) ==> an image or memory in my brain of a banana

Virtually impossible to stop this chain from happening. Like "don't think of a pink elephant". Does the same thing even though pink elephants don't exist.

ok, so try to find this thinker, try to locate it, get a fix on it. this is the I, me, or self that we are talking about. really look. get pissed, and describe what happens.
ask yourself - what comes first during "my experience" of life, the experience, or the my/i/self?
i say that the my/i/self is a label after the experience. its a thought. what do you say

So my brain must be the thinker. I'm not sure that just because we can't see our own self, that it must not exist. In the banana experiment, my mind reflected the thought "banana" like a mirror reflecting something adjacent. A mirror cannot reflect itself but still exists.

If we conclude there is no "I", then are we concluding there is no brain/ body/ etc? In the Gary Weberinterview on this site, he says some scientists have found two brain structures that seem to cause the "self" idea. So doesn't that mean the rain is the thinker/ self?

[Nick]

Good, I see that you are really trying, not faking anything for my benefit or to deceive yourself. Please do not feel that you have to accept anything on faith or adopt any new beliefs. All you have to do is allow yourself to be at least open to the possibility that what I'm telling you is true. Just allow that possibility, and then check. Look in your actual experience right here and now, and see whether it is true or not.

Letters/ symbols (a label that in English signifies banana) ==> an image or memory in my brain of a banana

Good, try to see how the thoughts I, me, mine, self, are also labels.

So my brain must be the thinker.

Here you are operating from the normal assumption that you have been taught by 99% of humanity - that there is an external world, inside of which is your body, inside of which is your brain, inside of which is your conscious mind. But in fact, "your' has no meaning in reality. This concept of internal/external is also wrong, and in some ways the assumed order is actually the opposite of what is true.

Think about this - what constitutes "your" body? If your limbs, abdomen, and torso are removed piece by piece, do the amputated parts still count as "yours"? If I keep chopping off pieces including pieces of your head and brain, at what exact point do "you" cease to exist?

Think about this - is the skin somehow the boundary of "your" body? This is what is assumed. From what you know of science, atoms and particles are not fixed in position, and most of matter is empty space. Cells and molecules are constantly shed, excreted, re-formed in your biology. "your" body was created from your mother's own flesh plus food, and when it dies it will rot and become food for worms, insects, plants. Really think about this and try to see if there is such a thing in reality as "your body" or if this is just a thought, a label that we use in language so that we can communicate.

If we conclude there is no "I", then are we concluding there is no brain/ body/ etc?

No. The difference is this. The brain exists in reality. The body exists in reality. These things function and move around, and are called "Mark" for purposes of convenience. What do not exist in reality are the I, me, mine, self. "I" is a thought, a label that is placed on to something. But it doesn't refer to anything real. Just like a thought of a unicorn. You see, the thoughts are real, they exist, but the unicorn does not exist. And neither do "you".

Keep looking. Happy Independence Day, Mark. Freedom.

Nick

[xthinker88]

The difference is this. The brain exists in reality. The body exists in reality. These things function and move around, and are called "Mark" for purposes of convenience. What do not exist in reality are the I, me, mine, self. "I" is a thought, a label that is placed on to something. But it doesn't refer to anything real. Just like a thought of a unicorn. You see, the thoughts are real, they exist, but the unicorn does not exist. And neither do "you".

Here's the thing. I think I could be convinced logically to believe this but I'm having trouble with the idea of "seeing" it to be true. And from the ebook - i recognize that belief is not the goal. Every time I think, there is no "I", I realize that I'm just doing the self- referencing thing again.

[Nick]

I think I could be convinced logically to believe this but I'm having trouble with the idea of "seeing" it to be true. And from the ebook - i recognize that belief is not the goal.

This is like the difference between reading an erotic story, and the actual experience of having sex. The stories might give you some nice ideas and turn you on, but there's no substitute for experiencing the real thing. So forget about the ebook for now. It's a cool book and can be inspiring, but really its just a bunch of stories about other people. This is about what's real, right here, right now, in your actual current experience.

Every time I think, there is no "I", I realize that I'm just doing the self- referencing thing again.

Please explain what you mean by "the self-referencing thing". Is it because, as you say - "I" think there is no I? It's not actually "you" thinking. These are the words we use, but they're not true, we just accept them provisionally, as a way to communicate. Don't get too caught up in language. When seeing happens, it is nothing to do with language or concepts. There is no you thinking about its own non-existence.

And, btw, you dodged my previous question ;)

Try again. Where do the thoughts occur? Locate them. Look and report back what you find.

Your friend,

Nick

[xthinker88]

Please explain what you mean by "the self-referencing thing". Is it because, as you say - "I" think there is no I? It's not actually "you" thinking. These are the words we use, but they're not true, we just accept them provisionally, as a way to communicate. Don't get too caught up in language. When seeing happens, it is nothing to do with language or concepts. There is no you thinking about its own non-existence.

So if I have the thought, "there is no I", then the thought itself can be real without reverting to the myth of "I"?

I was wondering about that since my job requires thinking and even planning whereas that Gary weber video implies an inability to do either. Kind of worries me.

And, btw, you dodged my previous question ;)
Try again. Where do the thoughts occur? Locate them. Look and report back what you find

Not intentionally I think. I'm still thinking - the brain. Eyes see word "banana" - optic nerve carries signal to brain - bunch of electrochemical stuff happens bringing up memory of what the letters signify as well as possibly images of a banana.

The question "where" might be throwing me off (although obviously not as "off" as you'd like to throw me. Physically the where would be the brain. Within my consciousness or awareness - I'm not sure there is a "where". There doesn't seem to be.

[Nick]

So if I have the thought, "there is no I", then the thought itself can be real without reverting to the myth of "I"?

YES!

Although if we're going to nit-pick, it's not "you having the thought". Its just - "there is no I".

I was wondering about that since my job requires thinking and even planning whereas that Gary weber video implies an inability to do either. Kind of worries me.

Don't worry you're not going to end up crazy or dysfunctional. This thingee that we call liberation or seeing, its a private, internal understanding. You will still be able to function normally in society, to think and reason, talk, laugh, love, all those things that people do. That is your public facade. And yes you'll see privately that it's artificial (although admittedly an elaborate and beautiful artifice), but that doesn't mean that it goes away. It's like a first-person virtual reality video game with really awesome graphics. Even though you know its fake, you still can play and enjoy. (caveat - kind of a misleading metaphor since there's no "player" in reality).

Eyes see word "banana" - optic nerve carries signal to brain - bunch of electrochemical stuff happens bringing up memory of what the letters signify as well as possibly images of a banana.

all true, but this says nothing about the vivid reality, the experience of thinking. Again to use a sex metaphor, its like saying "well the penis goes in the vagina and then a few minutes later there is ejaculation and release of endorphins". That's just a description of the mechanics of the material world. That says NOTHING about what it's like to experience sex.

The question "where" might be throwing me off (although obviously not as "off" as you'd like to throw me. Physically the where would be the brain. Within my consciousness or awareness - I'm not sure there is a "where". There doesn't seem to be.

Now you're coming up against it. Against the astounding fact of real experience. Of course the brain is involved in thoughts. But does the experience of thinking occur inside Mark's brain? That's just a greyish blob of meat, how could it contain this ever-flowing stream of thoughts, feelings, sights, senses, and experiences of the world? Close your eyes and watch your thoughts, forget about the mental images of your head and brain. Look right here and now, WHERE is all this shit happening? Remember this is not a movie or a test in school, the thoughts are REAL.

You can try this with all your senses. Listen for a sound, like a bird or traffic or whatever. You can locate the source of the sound in the "external world" using your ears and brain, but try to locate the experience of hearing. Where does "hearing" take place?

You mentioned consciousness or awareness, WHERE is this? How big is it, what are the boundaries?

You're doing great, keep going.

Nick

[xthinker88]

It's like a first-person virtual reality video game with really awesome graphics. Even though you know its fake, you still can play and enjoy. (caveat - kind of a misleading metaphor since there's no "player" in reality).

That's kind of a relief. But I'm wondering what the benefit is?? We could say that seeing truth is its own reward but how is it better to be playing the "virtual reality video game" than just to be living in it?

Now you're coming up against it. Against the astounding fact of real experience. ...Close your eyes and watch your thoughts, forget about the mental images of your head and brain. Look right here and now, WHERE is all this shit happening? Remember this is not a movie or a test in school, the thoughts are REAL.

So my son awakened me last night out of a sound sleep at about midnight. I was dreaming. Don't remember what. But, clearly, dreaming is an artificial reality constructed in our mind that seems real during the dream. It seems fairly easy to say, "there is no dreamer, the dreaming just is". But that feels more like a belief than a "seeing".

You can try this with all your senses. Listen for a sound, like a bird or traffic or whatever. You can locate the source of the sound in the "external world" using your ears and brain, but try to locate the experience of hearing. Where does "hearing" take place?

Hearing just seems to be. But, again, this feels more believed than known. If I didn't know better I'd think the "little man" in my head was afraid to come out and play every time I try to focus on seeing a thought or its source or its location - it goes away.

You mentioned consciousness or awareness, WHERE is this? How big is it, what are the boundaries?

Mostly it seems limited to the general vicinity of this body and brain cavity. And tied to it in some way. If my body drank a lot of alcohol - that would definitely dim the awareness and maybe make the consciousness go out.

Driving home last night, I had an experience for more than an hour. Felt almost like being lightly buzzed but it was like mushin in martial arts practice - but extended. Experienced very few thoughts during that whole time. It seemed almost like pure attention to driving and surroundings. I had even put on a podcast to listen to and found myself listening to it without thoughts (although I did laugh at a couple of funny parts - but didn't seem to be thinking about them). Very strange. I know you said we are not looking for a state though.

[Nick]

But I'm wondering what the benefit is?? We could say that seeing truth is its own reward but how is it better to be playing the "virtual reality video game" than just to be living in it?

OK I admit this metaphor was not great, just forget about it. Hahahaha. Anyway, seeing the truth is not something you will regret, you can count on that. It may be blissful and beautiful or just a moment of "oh yes, of course!". Don't worry about it now.

But, clearly, dreaming is an artificial reality constructed in our mind that seems real during the dream. It seems fairly easy to say, "there is no dreamer, the dreaming just is". But that feels more like a belief than a "seeing".

And in the dream, "you" may not be present, right? Like it could be a dream in the third person, or a dream where you're experiencing life as someone else. And yet, when you wake up you claim that this was "your dream". Weird, right?

Hearing just seems to be.

Yes! See if you can identify a location.

If my body drank a lot of alcohol - that would definitely dim the awareness and maybe make the consciousness go out.

spoiler alert - consciousness or awareness is never not-present, including during states of deep sleep, drunken stupor, or full blown anesthesia. we can get into that later.

Driving home last night, I had an experience for more than an hour. Felt almost like being lightly buzzed but it was like mushin in martial arts practice - but extended. Experienced very few thoughts during that whole time. It seemed almost like pure attention to driving and surroundings. I had even put on a podcast to listen to and found myself listening to it without thoughts (although I did laugh at a couple of funny parts - but didn't seem to be thinking about them). Very strange. I know you said we are not looking for a state though.

just enjoy it. The state will go away but there's nothing wrong with these states. Use it to look and investigate - YOU DON'T EXIST. Face it in this state and see what comes up.

If I didn't know better I'd think the "little man" in my head was afraid to come out and play every time I try to focus on seeing a thought or its source or its location - it goes away.

your whole life you've BELIEVED that there was little man in your head. You've believed that life is like a first person movie and Mark is the main character. Yet when you look for this little man, he's nowhere to be found. In fact, he didn't go away because he was never there to begin with! This is it, man, you are LOOKING. You're standing proud at the Gateless Gate. Do not falter. Keep looking at this. Really look for the "self", the "little man".

Nick