Seeking

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

Many thanks....I'm going away now for the weekend so won't be able to post again until Sunday eve or Monday....will keep looking! Louise x

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

Sorry I haven't had a chance to post - busy family weekend, now I'm busy getting ready to go to USA tomorrow, so I think I'll need to pause until I get back. I hope that's ok - things are certainly loosening. Louise is clearly a concept created in thought. Things are as they are - emotions especially some nervousness now in anticipation of my trip, and then noticing how I attach 'Louise' to this. But I don't feel a definite clear ah ha I'm through the gate so I think there is a bit more enquiry to do.

Thank you so much, I really appreciate this and have enjoyed what feels like a challenge in looking with your guidance! I'm back at the Easter weekend so perhaps we can continue after that. I won't be able to post when I'm away as I'll have no lap top or similar with me and will be busy training.

Have a good Easter break whatever you are doing,
Love
Louise

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

I'm back, keen to pick up the enquiry again. I used the app a bit while I was away. It encourages you to be very specific and look deeply. I notice this is quite hard to do, my thoughts jump around a lot. How to stay with one topic, keep focus and look more deeply. I noticed I was bolder away than I normally am...I don't know if this is anything to do with the results of looking but it was interesting to observe - a bit less attachment to being shy! It would be good to hear from you and continue.

Best wishes
Louise

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

We lost touch. I posted a few messages, partly to say I was going away, then back, but didn't hear back from you...then I got really busy so didn't chase it up again. Are you still around? I'd like to continue the enquiry, not sure I've seen through yet, but it was really helping...

Hope to hear back,

Best wishes
Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

Ithe is good to be in contact with you again. I'm so sorry I did not pick up your last messages. I too became rather busy over Easter and I rather lost the thread, quote literally!

Reading the last message, you seemed concerned that your thoughts are jumping around a lot.

Why are you concerned about this?

Is it possible to control thought?

Very best wishes

Nina

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

Ithe is good to be in contact with you again. I'm so sorry I did not pick up your last messages. I too became rather busy over Easter and I rather lost the thread, quote literally!

Reading the last message, you seemed concerned that your thoughts are jumping around a lot.

Why are you concerned about this?

Is it possible to control thought?

Very best wishes

Nina

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

Good to be in touch again. I will aim to post every day to keep the momentum going, even if short. I am busy (as everyone seems to be) but want to engage fully with this.

Reading the last message, you seemed concerned that your thoughts are jumping around a lot.
Why are you concerned about this?
I was concerned about it as it caused me irritation and seemed to be getting in the way of seeing things clearly - like a thick fog of stuff and noise creating a barrier to calm, quiet and clear seeing. However I had a shift with this on retreat recently. Nothing new that I didn't know but something I haven't been able to change before now. I realised this constant voice, stream of thoughts jumping around had the energy of a child tugging at a sleeve. Another part of me was irritated, not wanting it there, saying 'get off'. The more I say 'get off' the more the child tugs. So I realised this was part of 'me' that needed attention and wasn't going to go away, so I changed my attitude to a more compassionate, accepting one. Not particularly listening to the content of the thoughts but just being more ok with them - 'there they are', 'ah more thoughts coming again', 'what a stream of them' etc. So I have become less concerned and more accepting of them. I'm also trying, when I get that stream, to tune in to body sensations - to feel what's going on. I find myself so predominantly in my head and with my thoughts that will take practice.

Is it possible to control thought? Absolutely not, that is clear!

I will read back through our thread today to remind myself of it all.

Have a good Thursday Nina,

Best wishes, Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

It is great that it has been seen that thoughts can't be controlled. It is also wonderful to accept the thoughts that turn up!

Try relaxing the jaw and vocal chords ..... conversational thought seems to subside quite a lot when the jaw and vocal chords are relaxed. This is because conversational thought is actually silent "self talk". Something that is being said silently. Experiment with that and see what happens.

I'm also trying, when I get that stream, to tune in to body sensations - to feel what's going on.

When sensations are looked at, what does thought say?
Are there labels?
Is there commentary?
Is there diagnosis?
Is thought running a trouble shooting programme?

What is going on?

Love

Nina
Xxxx

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

Thanks for the tip on relaxing the jaw and vocal chords - just feels good to do that anyway instead of holding tension. It relieves the chatter for a bit until it comes back through the back door.

When sensations are looked at, what does thought say?
Are there labels?
Is there commentary?
Is there diagnosis?
Is thought running a trouble shooting programme?

Surprisingly, mostly when I turn attention to sensations ie my experience in the last 24 hours, there are mainly just sensations - the feeling of something in a part of my body. If it's an obvious feeling, like hot or cold then the label comes to mind, but when it's less obvious or without a clear known label then I am just aware of that sensation. I went for a swim this morning and kept bring attention to the feeling in my body and in the water. My mind wasn't describing it with words or commenting on it, I was just with the sensations - until I suddenly found I was on another train of thought about something else. Then back to sensations which weren't really describable as they were just sensations. If I needed to describe them at the time or now words would create an approximation or description of them. I haven't specifically felt pain today, but from memory if this happens that's when mind comes in adding lots of commentary to what's going on. eg I often get tummy pain/gripes and it makes me feel bad on top of the actual uncomfortable sensations I'm feeling. 'I feel so awful', what has caused this, I should have done things differently, how am I going to be ok at work etc etc....

And dancing this evening - lots of mind chatter and trains of thought going on, commentating on what else is going on in the room, how I'm dancing, how others are dancing, what people might be thinking. But when I remembered to bring awareness more in to my body and the sensations I was then aware of those sensations just as they were. My neck/ shoulders were quite sore and stiff so there was some commentary around that, but at other times the sensations were just there. This is surprising, i would have guessed there would be more commentary from mind on felt sensation.

Will keep looking at this - thank you!
Best wishes
Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise-

It is great to hear that sensation can just be there without commentary and labels!

Getting back to directly looking for "me" or "I", is there any sensation that seems to be attached to an "I" or "me"?

Is there something familiar that seems to be an "I"?

Is there anything there that it is possible to describe?

Best wishes

Nina

[Artyzen]

It is great to hear that sensation can just be there without commentary and labels!

Oh good - it was a surprise to find that and glad to hear that's a positive thing!! Will keep noticing sensations and any commentary or thoughts that do arise.

Getting back to directly looking for "me" or "I", is there any sensation that seems to be attached to an "I" or "me"?
Yes very much so, what I call a sense of Louise/me-ness.....but this is my immediate response and I will look today to see how I can describe it and post this evening.

Is there something familiar that seems to be an "I"? - Yes indeed a very familiar feeling - will investigate...

Is there anything there that it is possible to describe?

[Artyzen]

Getting back to directly looking for "me" or "I", is there any sensation that seems to be attached to an "I" or "me"?
A sensation behind the eyes and in the brow, a slight frown. The way it feels in my body, though when I look this is a range of sensations that may vary from day to day but with some that repeat themselves a lot - particular pains or tension in a particular place. The strongest sense of 'me' is behind the eyes, in the head. Particular tension around the eyes which seems to connect with a particular outlook, 'Louise's' outlook, way of looking, behaving and interacting with the world. Maybe it's just a sensation with associated thoughts?

Is there something familiar that seems to be an "I"? Again the thoughts in my mind that sound like my voice and that are behind the 'look' from my eyes. The way I react....though I know this has changed over the years and is full of variety, so it's behaviour rather than a tangible 'I'

Is there anything there that it is possible to describe? It's hard to describe which is what I've just been trying to do. There is a strong sense of something, of a 'me' which is what I've been trying to analyse - how to describe it in actual experience. It's a bit nebulous and vague, something that I just feel, or is just felt. Maybe it's a combination of sensation and thought that puts this together that feels so real as 'me'....maybe real because it's so familiar.

I do find it difficult to really look and try and break down experience into sensations, thoughts etc. My mind goes a bit vague and foggy, hard to see things clearly. If I put my focus on thoughts or sensations or sounds I see/hear them as they are, but if I put focus on any felt sense ie of 'me' it's much harder to analyse it...the sense is there, familiar.

I think that's all for now Nina,

Best wishes
Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise,

That was a great reply!

I have a few questions arising from what was said.

Are "you" behind the eyes?
Is there a "you" looking through the eyes?

Are "you" the sound of the voice in thought?
Is this the same "you" as is behind the eyes?

Is the "outlook" - a way of looking at things - "you"?

Are the familiar sensations "you"?

Are are these points aspects of "you"?

If so, how do all the aspects of "you" hang together?

Where is the united picture of all these aspects of "you"?

Lots of love

Nina
Xxxx

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

I like the logic of these questions!

Are "you" behind the eyes?
If I look behind the eyes it feels like empty space - there isn't a lot of sensation there other than some tightness/tension in the eyes and behind that tension just the space that my head takes up.
Is there a "you" looking through the eyes?
Conceptually there is but in reality there's no tangible thing I could call 'me' looking through the eyes, unless I call it consciousness/awareness.

Are "you" the sound of the voice in thought?
There is something that hears that voice in thought so 'i' can't be just the voice or I'd be split. Each feels like an aspect of me.
Is this the same "you" as is behind the eyes? Yes the same me, just a different aspect of me.

Is the "outlook" - a way of looking at things - "you"? Again it's not a tangible thing. It's attitude, behaviour and it feels linked with the feeling behind the eyes

Are the familiar sensations "you"? They are not 'me', they are sensations that change and lots are familiar, my memory knows that I've had that sensation before.

Are are these points aspects of "you"? Yes

If so, how do all the aspects of "you" hang together?
As an idea, a concept of Louise. All these things are real, are sensed, seen etc. None of them can be described as 'me' because me is bigger than all of them and there is awareness of them which is also part of me. But put together they create 'me', but I see 'me' is not one actual thing but the pattern of lots of aspects linked together by the thinking mind.

Where is the united picture of all these aspects of "you"?
In thought. The mind links these aspects to create a sense of Louise. It does it very powerfully and convincingly.

Thanks that was a really helpful sequence of questions Nina, helping me see that

Best wishes
Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise,

Fantastic bit of looking:

In thought. The mind links these aspects to create a sense of Louise. It does it very powerfully and convincingly.

Let's ask some questions about how this is so convincing. Firstly, consider language. The "voice of Louise" is convincing and uses language.

Firstly, take a piece of fruit. Maybe an orange, apple or banana.

What is the relationship between the word "orange" and the actual experience of the fruit.
Consider colour, smell, taste, sound and sensation.
There are many aspects to the actual experience but they are all labelled "orange".
Does the fruit itself know anything about being an orange? Does all the experience fit the label "orange"? Does the label "orange" add anything to the experience?
Or is it just a random symbol?

What is the relationship between the word "I" and actual experience?
Consider colour, smell, taste, sound and sensation.
there are many aspects to actual experience but we label them all "I".
Does colour, smell, taste, sound and sensation know anything about "I"? Does the label "I" fit all experience?
Does the label "I" add anything to experience?
Or is it just a random symbol?

Lots of love

Nina

Xxxx