Experiencing Truth

[Alex1student]

ok so the implication of that is there is even 1% that there really, truly is a separate self, Alex, an entity, existing right now, somewhere, in some form? Is that right?

That is the implication yes. But this sounds silly.

Where would that be?

In thought. In sensation. In experience. Alex is a label for this life living. This experience from this perspective.

What would that look like?

My god. so much in our culture is labeled and agreed to be something when it is everything but that.

Saying someone is stupid. Show me that. What does that look like? Who is stupid? What is stupid?

If another culture millions of miles away had a label for stupid, it would be a different label (different word), it would be agreed throughout the people that a certain way of acting was stupid (which could be a different way from the first culture). But even still, stupid does not exist.

We categorize, label, put into little buckets small, small, small portions of experience and say that is all there is. No need to look at that again, it has been done. So much is missed. But who is there to miss it? No one.

Looking at a phone on the desk. Screen says "Your current options". Have to giggle a bit. Your is meaningless. That phone would get the message across by simply saying "options". There are things that can be done when this button is pressed. No your needed here.

These thoughts about there still bening "x number of ours of work remaining. How will we get through this?". They aren't "my" thoughts. Who can't get through what? They don't feel as important.

There is still life being experienced, and a feeling of "self" but it is not so sticky right now. I wonder if it will last. There is doubt.

[Hannah B-T]

In thought. In sensation. In experience. Alex is a label for this life living. This experience from this perspective.

Ok let's look at this-
so thoughts can talk about Alex. Fine. Sometimes that is shorthand for 'this body'
'I'm going to the toilet/going to take the trash out'

Where is the Alex in sensation? Describe the 'Alex' sensation(s) that are happening right now.

Where in experience right now is Alex? Is the self? This is the whole basis of this inquiry, and so far such a thing has not been found.
If I say where in experience is the window, boom, finger can point straight to it.
Can a finger point to Alex right now?

What separates 'this life' from just 'life'?

What is 'this perspective' without assumptions or ideas?
Without assumptions and ideas is there any direct experience of any other perspective?

Come on, let's go for it, let it all burn ;)

Language is a liar. Every time. But the great thing is, it doesn't even matter- it works on it's own level.

xx

[Alex1student]

Where is the Alex in sensation? Describe the 'Alex' sensation(s) that are happening right now.

Anxiety "tingling in the chest, felt when breathing". Sensations of the eyebrows furrowing. Eyes squinting. Feeling of dry eyes from allergies. Thoughts about a story involving Alex. "Better not slack at work". "We better get this project done quickly". Looking through glasses, the sensations of glasses sitting on the nose. A thought image of what Alex looks like from memory of a mirror. The body seen through the eyes. A thought story about what Alex needs to do in the future. All "alex" sensations seem to be thought claiming sensations. The feeling of sitting here and "looking" or "thinking" is really just a collection of sensations in the body, and thoughts about what is happening. No one has control of this?

Where in experience right now is Alex? Is the self? This is the whole basis of this inquiry, and so far such a thing has not been found.

I'll let you know when I find him! But really, there is no where left to search... Yesterday was clear, now not so much. But there is an ability to look again and again. But it seems to just happen on its own? When there are thoughts that say "this isn't working, we forgot to look for a while", there is a belief that this is true. Then randomly on its own clear seeing happens, and thoughts are seen to be just thoughts telling a story. There is frustration that this won't just topple over and be done with.

If I say where in experience is the window, boom, finger can point straight to it.
Can a finger point to Alex right now?

Pointed at a rock, picked it up, felt it. Real enough. Point at Alex? Habit is to point towards the eyes, but then there is just a finger pointing at eyes. This is a body, not Alex. Not believing in a rock doesn't make it disappear, yes this is true. Not believing in self should make it disappear, since it is not real. There must be some belief still there. Still where? Right now there is just one thought after the next. Always a new thought, or a thought of a memory (which can be image or sound) but not real. They come and go like clouds, so how can there even be a belief that is unchanging?

What separates 'this life' from just 'life'?

No separation that is real. Ideas and assumptions about how it must be real. I am not someone else, therefore there is other things to be separate from. If There is no me than there are no you's, so it would be truthful to say there is no separation of life.

What is 'this perspective' without assumptions or ideas?
Without assumptions and ideas is there any direct experience of any other perspective?

No, it is only possible to experience what is currently experienced. Like asking me to say what is behind me. I can recall from memory, but from direct experience there is only what is in front of me being seen. No direct experience of "other perspective"...just assumption they are there. An idea of what they must be like.

[Hannah B-T]

Lovely answers, everything is unfolding just fine

Then randomly on its own clear seeing happens, and thoughts are seen to be just thoughts telling a story. There is frustration that this won't just topple over and be done with.

Most people go through a stage like this 'flip-flopping', think of it as less toppling as a one time event, more like a wave machine in a pool, something has been stirred up, the previous default paradigm is shifting, and that means some waves up and down for a while and then things settle naturally into the new paradigm. No need to worry. The only moment that can be looked at is this one, so just stay curious about this moment, and the next one. Enjoy things being seen in a different light. It's a magical process.

Let's give it a few days over the holiday weekend as I will be away then we can check in.
I'd like you to focus on other people now, if it seems more like they have/are a self and how that works.
I sat in a park watching the trees, the birds the dogs and the people and really looking to see what the difference was in experience, why I had believed one of those had a self, and the rest did not.

xx

[Alex1student]

No need to worry. The only moment that can be looked at is this one, so just stay curious about this moment, and the next one. Enjoy things being seen in a different light. It's a magical process.

A frustratingly magical process. ;) Advice taken. "I" will focus on the current moment (and the next...)

Let's give it a few days over the holiday weekend as I will be away then we can check in.

Sounds great. I certainly hope you enjoy the weekend. You're guidance is immensely appreciated.

I'd like you to focus on other people now, if it seems more like they have/are a self and how that works.

Funny you mention this! Today I was experiencing life on and off as a game. Focusing more on other people and less on me, playing with those experiences. Noticing sensations of "me" looking out from the eyes, questioning that, and that sense falling away for a bit and just seeing. Like weight is lifted for a bit and more seeing occurs. Noticing how the many thoughts that come up with other people that infer meaning where there is none in actual experience. "I wonder what she thinks of us". "Did she just make a facial expression that means we offended her"? These didn't feel as important as in the past. Sort of fun to see what happens (not that seriousness and belief of thought) doesn't still creep in. I am beginning to see how "challenging" things in life can be the most revealing. Also, it's interesting that I am referring to myself as "us" or "we" the past couple of days. What the heck is that about... Is self multiplying!????!?!? The horror! ;) This is ridiculous, but funny, so I'm not deleting it.

Still, I see what you are saying about noting if others have a self. It seems more that there are thoughts (memories in the form of feelings, images, and sounds) about other people that is labeled as "them". Similar to how the personal "I" is a label of "me". This is extremely limiting.

I sat in a park watching the trees, the birds the dogs and the people and really looking to see what the difference was in experience, why I had believed one of those had a self, and the rest did not.

Hmmm...reread this and see you are pointing at how can a dog can have a self, if a tree cannot? What the difference is there, if there is one. I will certainly make time to look at this.

-Alex

[Hannah B-T]

Noticing sensations of "me" looking out from the eyes, questioning that, and that sense falling away for a bit and just seeing.

Great stuff, this can be a very persistent illusion, so don't expect this to drop away right now, just stay curious about how those senstions of 'looking out from behind the eyes' create the illusion of a little person in there looking 'out'.

"I wonder what she thinks of us". "Did she just make a facial expression that means we offended her"? These didn't feel as important as in the past.

Might by a fun game to reflect in interactions how much of the thoughts creating the illusion of 'Alex' are generated by other peoples ideas about 'Alex' that are then taken on.

I am beginning to see how "challenging" things in life can be the most revealing.

Byron Katie says 'everything's a gift'. Sometimes it doesn't seem like that though, and that's ok too!

Also, it's interesting that I am referring to myself as "us" or "we" the past couple of days. What the heck is that about... Is self multiplying!????!?!? The horror! ;) This is ridiculous, but funny, so I'm not deleting it.

It's not uncommons once language starts to be seen through as not as 'true' as it once was felt to be that new ways of expressing things can be played with.Some people even struggle with using personal pronouns for a while, but as long as this is just seen as fun play and not a problem, then yes, it can be both funny and useful. Does it still feel ok to talk about I me and mine in everyday conversation?

xx

[Alex1student]

Does it still feel ok to talk about I me and mine in everyday conversation?

Struggling this weekend. But yes. This is still ok when speaking to other people to reference I, me, and mine to get a point across. A useful label.

Sometimes this feels silly in the head, talking about me, but more often it feels quite solid and "serious".

Thoughts are not controlled. I've tried very hard to control and they still do their own thing. Like a labeling machine, and a guessing machine. It is curious that some are believed as fact, and some are seen as silly. I guess the notion that thought is not controlled meaning that there is no me doesn't seem to click.

A thought that occurs very often is the "I" thought and the "narration" thought. Thoughts saying things that will be spoken, that have been spoken, or have already been spoken. I'm sure we have already gone over this but it is sticking. "I" feel like I am typing this answer after speaking the words in my mind, like a copy paste function. Trying the words out before committing to paper, or screen.

But, the fingers just type, the body feels as always, thoughts yack away, and words are typed. Where is there an "I" controlling all that, and how could it juggle so many things. The concept of an "Alex" seems silly at times, and at others totally necessary. Perhaps just unquestioned.

[Hannah B-T]

Like a labeling machine, and a guessing machine.

Yes

It is curious that some are believed as fact, and some are seen as silly.

What exactly isthe difference between a 'believed' thought and a neutral thought.
What extra is happening in experience with the 'believed thought'?

Thoughts saying things that will be spoken, that have been spoken, or have already been spoken. I'm sure we have already gone over this but it is sticking. "I" feel like I am typing this answer after speaking the words in my mind, like a copy paste function. Trying the words out before committing to paper, or screen.

Ok, but if an I cannot be found either speaking the words in the mind or then writing them on the computer, then whats the issue? Isn't it just the labelling machine (conceptualising machine) chundering away?

Go onto an online AI like www.cleverbot.com
Have a 'guiding' conversation with cleverbot like i've been having with you.
Where is 'cleverbot'? Where is 'Alex'?
Does there need to be either 'entities' to have a comprehensible conversation?

[Alex1student]

What exactly is the difference between a 'believed' thought and a neutral thought.

Well, a believed thought is one that isn't questioned by me? Like I need to question every single thought that appears to judge if it's true or not, and that's the only way to be certain all of them aren't true. Couldn't it be more simply put that the only thing questioning if they are true, or even concerned if they are true, is just another thought saying "I wonder if this thought is true". Pretty much a thought of a thought...

What extra is happening in experience with the 'believed thought'?

There is an assumption that a believed thought is one that I am unable to see. Like it is whispered so quietly that it can't be heard in experience, but is still having an effect on this life. There is a concern that just because some things can be seen or heard or felt in direct experience, there are other thoughts that are invisible to direct experience. How does one see that there is only what is now in direct experience? Even as this is written I seems silly. Many experiments where direct experience was the most simple, true answer. Only when thought and mind contribute do things get "complicated". There could be billions of imagined thoughts that never happened, but in direct experience there was only ever a single thought that said "what if there are secret thoughts happening I can't hear?"

Ok, but if an I cannot be found either speaking the words in the mind or then writing them on the computer, then whats the issue? Isn't it just the labelling machine (conceptualising machine) chundering away?

Yes, and perhaps it's the conceptualizing machine coming up with all of these questions that need to be answered to solve the problem of no self and "get somewhere".

The human voice is also assumed to be me. The particular sound of the voice, but in actual experience this is a phenomenon created by the body, and I have seen that I am not hiding in the body. To be honest, there seems to be a big grey mass of "confusion and disorder" that "I" feel needs to be figured out. Looking for this disorder, there is only seen a thought image of a literal grey cloudy mass. Thoughts are so strange. Where are they being seen? Seeing happens in the real world of experience. But experiencing thought images is clearer when the eyes are closed and sight is dark. But, they are also seen when eyes are open like a hazy image floating...where? Not in front of the eyes, or above the head, or in the head...I can't find where they are experienced.

Have a 'guiding' conversation with cleverbot like i've been having with you.
Where is 'cleverbot'? Where is 'Alex'?

Have written and deleted a few answers for this...all going to mind and assumption, ideas for answers. If we are speaking of direct experience only, then no, there is no Cleverbot that can be seen, heard, touched, smelled...the only thing that can be found as a Cleverbot is a thought, a label, about what a Cleverbot might be.

Turning to me, or Alex...The body could be Alex, but it has been seen that the body does it's own thing and doesn't need an Alex, and the body can be touched, smelled, heard and seen. No Alex in those senses. Again, Alex can be found in thought, as an idea, a label, and a concept that claims the current experience.

Does there need to be either 'entities' to have a comprehensible conversation?

In direct experience, no there doesn't need to be entities to have a conversation. Just labels to give an idea of how to interact (woman, man, robot, funny, strict, important, not so important), what is ok to say, and what can be expected to be heard back based on past experience. Even clearer, one person speaking to another (when standing directly in front of one another) there is no Alex and Hannah in direct experience. There is speaking, hearing, seeing, etc. Possibly a thought about Hannah, or a thought about Alex, but in direct experience nothing.


I am curious about certain thoughts that repeatedly cause fear, and are looked away from. There is fear not only of these thoughts because they cause pain, but because it is seen that they are not controlled. There is no off switch, so there is fear they will continue until no more pain can be withstood. When asked what this fear is protecting me from, I get no answer.

[Alex1student]

It is seen just now clearly that when working on a project, there was a thought image of an "Alex" trying to connect to the situation when going over the To-dos. Like, a thought image of an Alex, a concept, and how it, or "I", would be affected by the outcome of this project. (Good or bad results.) Like that has any bearing, or is a consideration on this work. It was seen that this was not a real thing.

[Hannah B-T]

Couldn't it be more simply put that the only thing questioning if they are true, or even concerned if they are true, is just another thought saying "I wonder if this thought is true". Pretty much a thought of a thought...

Here is a hypothesis that I would like you to examine.
That the difference between believed thoughts and non believed thoughts is in the body sensations seemingly associated with that thought or lack of them.

Imagine a person who you dislike/ currently having some disagreement with them and bring to mind a specific phrase about them you believe. Don't try to 'non dual' your reaction away, really get into this idea that 'this person is an asshole' 'they do not understand x', whatever.
Now describe to me exactly what sensations in the body come up wth that.

Now imagine someone neutral, maybe you see regularly whose name you know but they don't trigger off a lot of thoughts. Maybe imagine the image of them and say their name.
Different experience in the body or the same?

Try it with big issues 'ISIS shouldn't have blown up Manchester arena', political issues you argue with people about.

Get really inquisivtive about how the body repsonds to these abstract ideas which have nothing to do with what i going on right now.

The human voice is also assumed to be me. The particular sound of the voice, but in actual experience, this is a phenomenon created by the body, and I have seen that I am not hiding in the body.

And what voice does 'the voice in the head' that's constantly talknig about I talk in? The same voice as the vocal cords are making, or a different one?

Thoughts are so strange. Where are they being seen? Seeing happens in the real world of experience.

It's enough for this inquiry to see what is a thought, and what is appearing in perception at quite a gross level. That's difficult enough most of the time!

Even clearer, one person speaking to another (when standing directly in front of one another) there is no Alex and Hannah in direct experience. There is speaking, hearing, seeing, etc. Possibly a thought about Hannah, or a thought about Alex, but in direct experience nothing.

That seems pretty clear.
Does it feel ok to see that?

there was a thought image of an "Alex" trying to connect to the situation when going over the To-dos. Like, a thought image of an Alex, a concept, and how it, or "I", would be affected by the outcome of this project.

Ok don't get sloppy :)
What is it, a picture of the body labelled Alex?
A thought talking about an Alex getting something?
Is any of that a real Alex? If not, job done, move on :)

If I ask you is there a unicorn i nthe room right now, how long would you need to look to be sure there wasn't one?
<3

[Alex1student]

Now describe to me exactly what sensations in the body come up wth that.

Tension in the chest, buzzing, felt when breathing. Sensations that come up in the body with anger.

Now imagine someone neutral, maybe you see regularly whose name you know but they don't trigger off a lot of thoughts.
Different experience in the body or the same?

Yes, very different. Almost no sensations in the body. Just calm and quiet.

And what voice does 'the voice in the head' that's constantly talknig about I talk in? The same voice as the vocal cords are making, or a different one?

Any number of voices seemingly at random. Certainly not the voice the body makes. Sort of creepy trying to pin point what it sounds like. Anyways, point taken...there is no consistency with the voice of thoughts. Different voices for different characters.

That seems pretty clear.
Does it feel ok to see that?

Yes, it does. It feels nice to see the extra mind stuff that mucks up experience as thoughts.

What is it, a picture of the body labelled Alex?
A thought talking about an Alex getting something?
Is any of that a real Alex? If not, job done, move on :)

Yep, exactly that. A picture in the mind of a vague shape of the body labelled Alex. Was noticing how these thoughts are so quick to attach the idea of Alex to what has already been experienced.

If I ask you is there a unicorn in the room right now, how long would you need to look to be sure there wasn't one?
<3

Ha! Certainly not very long, if at all. (Excuse me while I keep looking for Alex...). ;)

In this looking is it more pointed to be looking again and again at what is here right now in experience. Or to look for what is not there, and has never been there?

[Hannah B-T]

In this looking is it more pointed to be looking again and again at what is here right now in experience. Or to look for what is not there, and has never been there?

It's more about an attitude of ongoing questioning and curiosity. thoughts pop up saying all sorts of things, about the world, about others, interpreting and labeling. There is a process of 'unlearning' by then using the skill of turning to the perception going on right now and 'testing' those conceptual ideas out against that to see if that idea stands up to scrutiny.

Is this needed?
Is it helpful or is it involved with suffering?
Can it be seen through/let go of?

Does it still feel that there is a strong 'seeking energy', that this exploration is mostly a slog rather than fun and exciting?

[Alex1student]

There is a process of 'unlearning' by then using the skill of turning to the perception going on right now and 'testing' those conceptual ideas out against that to see if that idea stands up to scrutiny.

Thank you for this explanation. It is helpful and what has been noticed. A vigilance to question assumptions.

Does it still feel that there is a strong 'seeking energy', that this exploration is mostly a slog rather than fun and exciting?

It varies throughout the day. One minute sort of fun, the next very much an exercise in frustration. Still looking for a point in which it all clicks to be honest. Not looking hard enough, etc.

[Hannah B-T]

It varies throughout the day. One minute sort of fun, the next very much an exercise in frustration. Still looking for a point in which it all clicks to be honest. Not looking hard enough, etc.

Here's a question, which state feels more 'selfy'. The frustrated state or the fun/relaxed state?
Ponder on that a little...