Living Gateless

[nogate54]

Hi Petrus,

So an exercise today. Coolness.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or a volume?
Is there a boundary between the body and the ground?
Can you feel where the body ends?

Sitting in a chair, eyes closed. I have no idea how tall my body is. I feel the sensation of pressure as my body contacts the chair seat. I do not know the weight or volume. I cannot feel where my body ends. My eyes tell me where my body is when they are open. With eyes closed, only sensations are felt.

Do you have control over this body?
Can you locate a mind?

I feel I have control over this body as I think I am operating this unit. But as we have discussed before, there is no separate self to control this body. So, no, I do not have control over this body. If I did have control, I would instruct the body to begin slowly and healthfully losing about 40 pounds of weight, ha ha.

I feel the sensation of a mind, but I do not know its location. For many years, I thought the mind was part of the physical brain. But it is not there. Does the mind exist outside of the physical body? Like an energy field around the physical body? I have pondered these questions and do not know. I cannot locate a mind.

Can you feel your ears?
Does the body hear? Or is there hearing?

I cannot feel the sensation of my ears unless they are hurting or achy like when I have a cold. When the ears are stuffed up, there is a change in hearing. So I thought for a long time that hearing existed in the ears. But my experience over the last several years has show that hearing exists. There is hearing.

In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What does the body consist of in direct experience?
Are you this body?

The body seems solid to touch. It appears to have a form of 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, and a torso. There appears to be an inside and an outside separated by skin that keeps the blood and internal organs inside. My experience of the body is a solid functioning unit. It is not me. I reside in this body using it to experience this reality, but it is not me. Not who I am.

Again, good exercise and great questions. I am answering as honestly as I can because I know you are helping me see the truth behind all of this we collectively call Life. I see a lot, but I want to see all of it. There is this push, this drive, to see the truth. So, Petrus asks me, who is doing the pushing? the driving? Good question.

Take care,
Sue

[Petrus]

Hi Sue,

The body seems solid to touch.

Seems?

It appears to have a form of 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, and a torso.

This is memory or thinking. Only with seeing you can conclude there is a head.
And even then, with seeing you could say everybody else has a head, but you yourself need a mirror to have one.

There appears to be an inside and an outside separated by skin

I am not sure (because you use the word "appears") if you can know is there is an inside or outside?

My experience of the body is a solid functioning unit.

How do you know this?

I reside in this body using it to experience this reality

Is there an "I" to reside somewhere?

There is this push, this drive, to see the truth. So, Petrus asks me, who is doing the pushing

There is this push. Period. Nobody is doing that. It is a miracle.

Warm regards, Petrus

[nogate54]

Hi Petrus,

The body seems solid to touch.
Seems?

I use the word "seems" because the solidness of my body is understood as a sensation of pressure of my hand on my leg. I see my hand touch my leg. My body is solid by what my sensations are telling me.

It appears to have a form of 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, and a torso.
This is memory or thinking. Only with seeing you can conclude there is a head.
And even then, with seeing you could say everybody else has a head, but you yourself need a mirror to have one.

This is looking. I see my arms, legs, and torso. I do not see my head, only the reflection of it in a mirror. Only with a reflection can I see my head or back.

There appears to be an inside and an outside separated by skin
I am not sure (because you use the word "appears") if you can know is there is an inside or outside?

Using the skin as a barrier, there are body parts on one side of it but air on the other side. It depends on what you mean by inside and outside.

My experience of the body is a solid functioning unit.
How do you know this?

Using my hand on my body, it feels solid rather than liquid or gaseous.

I reside in this body using it to experience this reality
Is there an "I" to reside somewhere?

No, there is no "I" to reside anywhere. So what was my meaning here with these words......... To say I am not this body.

There is this push, this drive, to see the truth. So, Petrus asks me, who is doing the pushing
There is this push. Period. Nobody is doing that. It is a miracle.

There is this push. Nobody is doing it. There isn't anyone "doing" anything. Actions just are. Pushing happens. Drives happen. Thoughts arrive. Experiences occur. All without anyone doing anything. Separate doer from doing something. There is no doer. The something just gets done. Wow.

It sounds like all of Life is just happening of its own accord without any doers doing anything.

Warm regards,
Sue

[Petrus]

Hi Sue,

I use the word "seems" because the solidness of my body is understood as a sensation of pressure of my hand on my leg.

No, pressure is just a sensation. Solidness is an interpretation. Can you see that?

Using my hand on my body, it feels solid rather than liquid or gaseous.

Again: when using your hand only you feel pressure, no solidness.

Using the skin as a barrier,

Without sight is there a skin unless it hurts?

This is looking. I see my arms, legs, and torso.

The exercise is "with eyes closed". Without seeing, it is difficult to make an image.
The other part was "without relying on thoughts or mental images".
In that way solidness and realness of the body is a lot less.
Maybe you try the exercice again?

Regards, Petrus

[nogate54]

Hi Petrus,

Yes, I see now. Pressure is a sensation. Solidness is an interpretation of that experience.

Without sight, there is no skin unless it hurts. There is no sensation. So, there is no separateness of inside and outside.

Yes, I will do the exercise again.

Thanks, Sue

[nogate54]

Hi Petrus,

Doing the exercise again.

I have an exercise for you now:
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No.

Does the body have a weight or a volume?

No.

Is there a boundary between the body and the ground?

No.

Can you feel where the body ends?

No.

Do you have control over this body?

No.

Can you locate a mind?

No.

Can you feel your ears?

No.

Code: Select all

Does the body hear? Or is there hearing?

There is hearing.

In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No.

Is there an inside or outside?

No.

What does the body consist of in direct experience?

In direct experience, the body consists of sensations.

Are you this body?

No.

Warm regards,
Sue

[Petrus]

Hi Sue,

I like very much your style.
A bit negative all that "No" isnt it, hahaha?

You passed my exam.

I you are ok with that and you dont have 'questions for me I will give you the last 6 questions.
If you have answered the last 6 questions, I will show that answers to the other guides to see if they have any additional questions. If they have, I will give them to you to answer.

After that you will be invited to our 'post-gate' Facebook and forum groups (if you want!), where you could explore and discuss more if you like.
The Gate is not the end, but a start. There is a whole community of others on Liberation Unleashed (on Facebook and on the forum), who have also seen through the idea of a separate self. Actually, there are several groups to join.

Warmest regards, Petrus

[nogate54]

Hi Petrus,

After I first took the exam, our conversations were very helpful pointing in the no-self direction. Then doing the exam again was so simple, and the answers were so obvious. Like seeing with new eyes.

Yes, I would like the remaining questions. And, I look forward to joining the group for conversation and fun.

Take care,
Sue

[Petrus]

Hi Sue,

I am thrilled...
Here are the questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Regards, Petrus

[nogate54]

Hi Petrus,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no separate self, me, I, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form. There never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self starts at birth. We open our eyes and see around us. What we see is confirmed when we reach out and touch something. We see it is apart from our body. Mommy and Daddy are apart from us as we reach out for them. Separate-ness is shown very early in life, and it is reinforced throughout life by family, friends, culture, and society. We are told to think different thoughts, take responsibility for your actions, fix things, and figure problems out throughout our entire life. Lots of reinforcement for a separate self. For me, I saw cracks in this movie playing out as my life. Answers to problems arrived --- I didn't figure it out. Words came out of my mouth in answer to questions, but they are not my words. I watch events and experiences play out as an observer, a bit outside of my physical body. Experiences like this continued to happen more and more frequently. Then I came upon Liberation Unleashed book and the Gateless Gate book. And now, peace. No separate self. No "me." No "I." Buddhist folks talk about a mantra they use of I Am. I have done this, and it takes Truth only so far, which confused me. Now I understand. There is no "I." Petrus, there is such peace here. Just amazing.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels peaceful to see all of this. So simple. So obvious. I have heard those words before, but now I experience them myself. You and I have had a pretty intense dialog these last several days. At times after answering your post, I felt a bit "raw" from the process. That is when I deeply knew this was exactly what I truly needed to finish taking away the veil from before my eyes so I could see clearly.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The part that pushed me over, made me look, was you reflecting my own words back to me. Making me dig deeper into my own words and what I meant by them. Digging deeper.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decision is when a choice is to be made between 2 things. I used to think I made decisions by pondering all available options and choosing the best one. Now I see the choice arrives. There is no "I" to choose. Intention is another thought form, a thought to do something. Intentions arrive like thoughts arrive. Free will closely relates to intention and decision as it is also a thought that I freely choose to do something or be something or have something. But, there is no "I" or separate self to be, do, or have these things. Free will is a thought that arrives. Choice is like decision, making a selection between 2 or more options. Again, choice is a thought that arrives. Control is when I want to make something happen my way. There is no me, no I, so there is no control.

Decision, intention, free will, choice, and control are all thoughts that a separate self uses to influence their reality and relationship with other people and life forms. They all arrive and go of their own accord. They happen. No one does it.

I am responsible for nothing because I do not exist as a separate self. My experience looking behind things to see what is going on has brought me in contact with a huge black empty void of nothingness that contains everything. This void is Awareness. Awareness is what creates everything, thoughts, people, planets, universe. Working with you has expanded my experience with the void and my understanding.

6) Anything to add? I am glad you are a guide. We have had an amazing journey together, just opening eyes to the obvious. Thank you.

Warm regards, Sue

[Petrus]

Dear Sue,

I am as thankful as you are!
Thank you very much...

I will show the other guides.

Love, Petrus

[Petrus]

Hi Sue,

One of the guides asks for examples in Question 5: (Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.)

And another question:

Working with you has expanded my experience with the void and my understanding.

What do you think is experiencing and understanding what is going on right now?

Warm regards, Petrus

[nogate54]

Hi Petrus,

One of the guides asks for examples in Question 5: (Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.)

I do not know what makes things happen. Things just happen. My mind tries to explain the causes for all experiences and happenings, but these are stories my mind makes up.

My experience has been when I dig for answers that I encounter a vast, empty, black void. I dig deeper and find nothing beyond the void. So my mind makes up the story that the void is what makes things happen. For example, my mind tells me that the void is alive, it is conscious and aware, and it made everything in the universe in order to experience everything. Maybe this is true. Maybe it is not true. My current experience is a black void and a story from my mind. I do not have the experience to tell me if this is the truth. For now, this is my experience.

How things work is they work by themselves. Sensations arrive. Emotions arrive. Thoughts arrive. My experience with this has been when they arrive, my mind makes up a story about why they are here, what they mean, and what I need to do about them. Working with you has shown me the story portion of this process --- the story that my mind makes up to explain everything I encounter in my life. But the story is not truth. It is a story.

I am responsible for nothing. This is a huge change in understanding for me as before this work, I felt responsible for everything, even things I could not control or influence. Digging deep to answer questions showed me everything works of its own accord, The weather comes and goes on its own. People come into my life, interact with me, and leave. Events arrive and leave like jobs, money, family, and more. I am not responsible for these things. They come and go of their own accord. For example, I felt responsible for my home, how everything was placed in the home, when meals were prepared, what food was purchased and prepared, when and how to clean the home. But all of these processes come and go on their own. I am not responsible for any of it. When I saw this, all the tasks still got done, albeit in a different way or time than I did before.

And another question:
Working with you has expanded my experience with the void and my understanding.
What do you think is experiencing and understanding what is going on right now?

There is no separate self to experience or understand anything. So experiencing is happening. Understanding is happening. I say "I" so I can communicate concepts to others, but there is no "I". Never has been.

Warm regards, Sue

[Petrus]

Hi Sue,

The others guides have no further questions.
So now a LU admin will contact you and invite you for the "post-gate" groups.
Can you PM me your Facebook name (if you have one)?

It was my pleasure guiding you!

Regards, Petrus