I Need Guidance

[Life]

Is it possible for me to just not be able to see it? I looked for so long, and tried to put aside all concepts.

What is more true, are you doing the looking or is looking happening involuntarily? This cannot be seen by efford or by changing anything, there either is a self separate from the whole or there isn't. Nontheless during the day pay close attention to see if you are doing everything consciously or if things are happening automatically and if so what.

[Noobstorm]

Is it possible for me to just not be able to see it? I looked for so long, and tried to put aside all concepts.

What is more true, are you doing the looking or is looking happening involuntarily? This cannot be seen by efford or by changing anything, there either is a self separate from the whole or there isn't. Nontheless during the day pay close attention to see if you are doing everything consciously or if things are happening automatically and if so what.

I have tried this today.. some things for example I was running on a machine at the gym. I was lost in thought yet my body was running like normal. I wasn't concentrating on walking outside yet I was automatically walking.

I feel like I can control running, walking, etc. if I was focused(or put awareness) on it, is this true and why do I feel I have control over these things? So what if I were to say I am awareness?

Anyway, this post someone made recently pretty much sums up my feelings right now.

So the only way that I can can explain it is using the analogy of a PC, the "I" is the operating system (e.g. Windows) that assumed for most of my life that it was the the PC.. I'm not identified with form, personality, thoughts or reactions, but i still feel as if there is a central point where all my sensory input is processed (i.e. CPU).

[vinceschubert]

but i still feel as if there is a central point where all my sensory input is processed

Is believed to be a 'self' ?
Is it the essence of You ?

[Noobstorm]

but i still feel as if there is a central point where all my sensory input is processed

Is believed to be a 'self' ?
Is it the essence of You ?

Yes, it is believed to be a self. It certainly feels like the essence of me.

[vinceschubert]

Yes, it is believed to be a self.

Ok, 'flesh out' that self.
Focus on 'it' and describe it as fully as you can.
Don't talk conceptually. No deductions or logical conclusions.
Just describe what is actually there that you call a self.

[Trevor]

but i still feel as if there is a central point where all my sensory input is processed

Is believed to be a 'self' ?
Is it the essence of You ?

'There is a central point where all my food is processed but it's nothing personal.

You may well "feel as if ... " a lot of things. What you have to do right now is look and see what there actually is. Look, listen and check what is happening right now. What has always been happening right now, no matter what it sometimes feels as if.

Does this central point where all your sensory input is processed own anything?
Is it personal?
Is it just happening? To no one.

[Noobstorm]

Yes, it is believed to be a self.

Ok, 'flesh out' that self.
Focus on 'it' and describe it as fully as you can.
Don't talk conceptually. No deductions or logical conclusions.
Just describe what is actually there that you call a self.

I can't focus on a self.. if there is a self it can't be experienced directly that is impossible, because an experiencer can't be experienced.

I'm going to say 'if there is' because honestly I don't know for sure if there is a self or not.

but i still feel as if there is a central point where all my sensory input is processed

Is believed to be a 'self' ?
Is it the essence of You ?

'There is a central point where all my food is processed but it's nothing personal.

You may well "feel as if ... " a lot of things. What you have to do right now is look and see what there actually is. Look, listen and check what is happening right now. What has always been happening right now, no matter what it sometimes feels as if.

Does this central point where all your sensory input is processed own anything?
Is it personal?
Is it just happening? To no one.

Okay so I'm going to assume that this central point is the brain.
It owns the body, senses, thought, etc. It is personal because everyone has a different brain.
It is just happening as itself.

[vinceschubert]

an experiencer can't be experienced.

Ali, you look at say a tree. From a perspective of a self, there is a you here and a tree there. You look and the seeing happens at the tree. You even have binocular vision so that you can get a sense of distance.
Now, knowing that what is coming in through your eyes is light, varying frequencies of light seen as different colours. The brain interprets the whole thing and an image of a tree is formed in the brain.
Where is the separation between the see-er and the seen ?
Can a see-er see without the seen ?
Can the seen be seen without the see-er ?

[Noobstorm]

Where is the separation between the see-er and the seen ?
Can a see-er see without the seen ?
Can the seen be seen without the see-er ?

1. The see-er and the seen are separate.
2. No.
3. I don't know.

[vinceschubert]

The see-er and the seen are separate.

How about the classic 'seeing the coiled rope as a snake' scenario. (i imagine you have had your own version of this)
Isn't what was seen, completely in the mind ?
i put it to you that even the tree when seen is a mental fabrication.
What about when you and another are discussing whether it is a grey car or a blue one ? Same car, different responses ?

[Life]

Also when there is no seen at all, deep sleep, where is the see-er then? Is seeing just happening involuntarily or are you doing it?

[Noobstorm]

The see-er and the seen are separate.

How about the classic 'seeing the coiled rope as a snake' scenario. (i imagine you have had your own version of this)
Isn't what was seen, completely in the mind ?
i put it to you that even the tree when seen is a mental fabrication.
What about when you and another are discussing whether it is a grey car or a blue one ? Same car, different responses ?

That is true.

Also when there is no seen at all, deep sleep, where is the see-er then? Is seeing just happening involuntarily or are you doing it?

It's happening involuntarily.

[Noobstorm]

I am so frustrated I can't see directly what everyone is pointing at with clarity

[Life]

Frustration, thats good thing, totally dive into it, feel it, look is anything behind having it? Or just frustration coming up and leaving again?

here there is the feeling your thinking about it and trying to answer correctly instead of first checking thoroughly in experience what is really happening.

Seeing happens involuntary you said so its nothing you can control by thinking about it, or trying really hard.

[Noobstorm]

Frustration, thats good thing, totally dive into it, feel it, look is anything behind having it? Or just frustration coming up and leaving again?

here there is the feeling your thinking about it and trying to answer correctly instead of first checking thoroughly in experience what is really happening.

Seeing happens involuntary you said so its nothing you can control by thinking about it, or trying really hard.

I don't know how to "totally dive into it," but frustration is coming and going because I am frustrated.

I don't know how to check thoroughly in experience all I see is what I see every day nothing is different/this makes no sense.