Am I through the gate.

[Mav]

Hello Xain,
It is good to see that you are back on the forum. I hope that the retreat was what you wanted it to be. If it was in England I hope you managed to enjoy some of this sunny weather we have been having.
Would it be okay to continue our conversation?
Best wishes,
Mav.

[Xain]

Hi Mav

Yes, of course - Sorry - I'd been meaning to get back in touch with you to continue our chat.
I think that our conversation has been a bit direct and forceful from my side. This 'Zen Stick' approach can help but not in all situations. I'm happy to adopt a more relaxed approach if it will assist you.

The main thing to get a handle on is exactly what the issue is - And also make sure both of us understands each other.

So feel free to open up.

What are you clear about?
What are you NOT clear about?
What do you want to address / consider?

Xain ♥

[Mav]

Thank you Xain. I am really pleased that you are willing to continue.

I am clear that there is no self in the same way as I am clear that there is no Santa. It's understood intellectually and it can be seen from looking, that the 'I' that was thought to control thoughts, movement etc. does not exist. I can say with certainty that the I does not exist because it is clear that it was just an assumption.

I wonder if it is seen enough. It seems academic, by which I mean, it does not have any importance, consequence or relevancy. I know that there is no self, yet experience is as if there is one, unless there is focus on it. That may not matter. I don't know. In fact all I know is that there is no self. It brings confusion with it. Not clarity and understanding. It is frustrating. It is like being trapped in the matrix. I can live with that, but there is a strong desire not to.
If you said I have passed through the gate, I would doubt it. If 'I' have, or even if I have not, my questions would be, what is the value of this? How can there be greater understanding?

When you were away I did a lot of looking and thinking, but for a few days I left it alone. During those days this stuff was completely forgotten. This is a worry.

Others seemed to have an Ah-ha moment when something shifted or clicked. I wonder if that is important?
I hope this is clear. I can't think what else to say.

Thanks again for continuing with this conversation again. I really appreciate it.
Mav.

[Xain]

Ok. Before continuing, let's address a few things.

Let me know your current understanding and realisation relating to the following subjects.
Let me know what is completely clear for you in these areas. If something is NOT clear in these areas, you can let me know that too.

1) Whether the senses are linked to or being performed by an 'I' or 'a body'
Is the current experience appearing to a body or a self (or indeed ANYTHING separate).
2) Whether there is distance being perceived in all the senses (objects in experience are near or far).
3) Is there any inherent (real) choice or control over anything at all? If so, what?
4) Are thoughts or imagination being controlled or witnessed by a body or a self (or indeed ANYTHING separate).

Let me know

It does not have any importance, consequence or relevancy.

This is an interesting sentence. Can you explain as fully as you can what you mean for me, please?

Xain ♥

[Mav]

Thank you for the questions Xain. I was really pleased that although they are clearly linked to what we have discussed before, they come from a different angle.

1) Whether the senses are linked to or being performed by an 'I' or 'a body'
Is the current experience appearing to a body or a self (or indeed ANYTHING separate).

There is no 'I'. As I said in my last post, that is relatively easy because the 'I' was obviously an assumption. Are senses linked to a body? I am not entirely sure what you mean by this but in any case there is no understanding of this.

2) Whether there is distance being perceived in all the senses (objects in experience are near or far).

I have no understanding of this.

3) Is there any inherent (real) choice or control over anything at all? If so, what?

There is no 'me' making a choice but beyond that I have no understanding of this.

4) Are thoughts or imagination being controlled or witnessed by a body or a self (or indeed ANYTHING separate).

Not a self, but beyond that, I have no understanding of this.

It does not have any importance, consequence or relevancy.

This is an interesting sentence. Can you explain as fully as you can what you mean for me, please?

Know that there is no 'I' does not seem to have any influence on any anything else. There are reasons for thinking that something is being missed. For example why are you giving your time to this forum?
This has been a bit like finding out that an animal that I have never seen in the Brazilian rain forest has five stomachs. It is interesting but it does not connect with anything else that 'I' experience.
I was raised as a Christian. When I lost my faith there were massive shifts in the way the world was perceived. No 'I' has no effect on how life is perceived outside of the practice of 'looking'. This is odd because it isn't everyday that you find out that you don't exist, but because life carries on the same it is like an interesting titbit that you might mention at a dinner party. Ironically it seems almost self indulgent to give so much time to something that has no practical significance. I realise that last statement comes from not understanding. I am not suggesting that is how things are.

Best wishes,
Mav.

[Xain]

Ok, there are a number of things immediately springing out of your answers.
'I have no understanding of this' seems to me to be quite clear that you don't have a full grasp of the realisation, or you don't understand what I am asking (that's not your fault). Both could be possible.

So let's break things down one piece at a time until we establish understanding between each other.

There is no 'I'. As I said in my last post, that is relatively easy because the 'I' was obviously an assumption. Are senses linked to a body? I am not entirely sure what you mean by this but in any case there is no understanding of this.

So 'I' is an assumption. Ok.
Is it also an assumption that 'eyes are seeing'?
Is it also an assumption that 'body is experiencing an outside world'?

2) Whether there is distance being perceived in all the senses (objects in experience are near or far).
I have no understanding of this.

Sit down and place a cup on a table.
Look at that cup.
Does the cup appear at a distance? Does it appear at a distance from where 'seeing' appears to be being done from?

For example why are you giving your time to this forum?

That is YOUR belief.
From this side, there is no belief that there is an inherent self typing this message or thinking what to write.

Xain ♥

[Mav]

Hello Xain. I was hoping to answer quickly to keep the flow of conversation going, however it has taken me a while to think about my reply. I am very worried about adding complexity. This is as brief as I could get it.

So 'I' is an assumption. Ok.
Is it also an assumption that 'eyes are seeing'?
Is it also an assumption that 'body is experiencing an outside world'?

I see what you mean. Yes it is an assumption.
I am worried that this adds complexity so please disregard this if it does not matter: The difference between the 'self' and the eyes having something to do with what is seen, is that the self is dead for me. It does not hold up to scrutiny. The eyes having something to do with the process of sight however is still a possibility. BUT as I said before I do appreciate that if I believed that (I don't because I don't know what is going on) it would be an assumption.

Sit down and place a cup on a table.
Look at that cup.
Does the cup appear at a distance? Does it appear at a distance from where 'seeing' appears to be being done from?

It is possible to see if things are close or far away most of the time. There can be optical illusions of course. I think there is depth perception.
People often think that sensations behind the eyes is were the self is centred. I had similar feelings about this. What I discovered was that there was no reason to attach an idea of the self to what was going on behind the eyes. I was able to see that I had attached meaning, a jigsaw piece to the illusion of the self, to that area. However, I noticed that that area does have a quality of feeling as if it is the closest point. The chin feels closer than the foot. (PURE SPECULATION. NOT A BELIEF: I wondered if this this was a biological tool to help us identify the position of the parts of the body in relation to one another).
I am guessing this is the wrong answer, so I was trying to think about it in a different way, but I will need help with that.
Seeing does seem to be done from a particular place. I can't imagine another possibility to investigate at this time unless it all appears like a dream or something, but that is getting too speculative.
Thank you.
Mav.

[Mav]

I think I have just seen what you mean, by

'Does it appear at a distance from where 'seeing' appears to be being done from?'

The experience does not carry from and to information with it. It comes across as one thing. A tricky thing to explain, but I think that is probably what you are getting at.

[Xain]

The chin feels closer than the foot.

Ok - Yes, it's the same thing - Distance in the senses.
Objects in experience appear at different distances.
I mention this because this is unlikely to change - Just ignore it for now.
Some people expect an experiential shift to occur . . . and that can occur later on, but for now we are simply addressing 'What is at the location where experiencing appears to be being done from'.

The difference between the 'self' and the eyes having something to do with what is seen, is that the self is dead for me.

But this is a problem!

In this guidance, we are not just addressing 'self' - We are addressing ANYTHING separate that you believe you are.
That includes 'the body'.
For all intents and purposes in this guidance 'Self' and 'The body' are exactly the same, but using different words.
THIS might be the problematic area for you right here ^^^^

The eyes having something to do with the process of sight however is still a possibility.

Examine this very carefully and be honest.
There is a body here usually referred to as 'Mav'.
Does it have anything to do with the current experience. If so, how?
(By this, I mean is the body seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting etc)
Really examine this.

Xain ♥

[Mav]

Thanks for the post Xain. Really interesting.

My best guess at what you are trying to guide to is that there is special significance to what is directly seen. As far as I understand, we would say 'seen' rather than 'experienced'' because 'experienced' suggests an experiencer. An experiencer is not directly seen. As far as I can judge from your answers so far you are not saying that things that are not directly seen don't exist. I am not sure if you are saying they do, but only as an idea. If you say only as an idea, I am wondering if you mean literally mean only as an idea, not even as a possibility beyond that?

...we are simply addressing 'What is at the location where experiencing appears to be being done from'.

I am always wary of seeing things wrong. It is possible not to spot something when looking. Sometimes something can be pointed out and it becomes apparent that way. However as far as can be seen at the moment there is no location where experiencing appears to be being done from. One powerful thing that illustrates this is the feeling behind the eyes that is so attractive as the the number one candidate for the self. When looked at it is clearly being looked at i'e. Not from there. When I say looked at I don't mean to suggest a point of looking from to a point of looking to.

In this guidance, we are not just addressing 'self' - We are addressing ANYTHING separate that you believe you are.
That includes 'the body'.

I think I might see very roughly what you are leading me to. I don't think that I am the body. It was being investigated because I am not through the gate but I am hoping that the direct seeing thing I mentioned at the beginning of this post might be the thing to concentrate on.

The eyes having something to do with the process of sight however is still a possibility.

Examine this very carefully and be honest.
There is a body here usually referred to as 'Mav'.
Does it have anything to do with the current experience. If so, how?
(By this, I mean is the body seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting etc)
Really examine this.

I can see that the body feeling, the eyes seeing, is an idea. I am just not sure what to do with that .
If the aim is to know that all there is 'seeing', how could there be certainty that this is the case? Or is certainty not the issue? Not necessary perhaps?

I have had strong feelings that there is something to what has been written here. I hope that pulling the conversation down this route has not just complicated things more.

Thanks again,
Mav.

[Xain]

My best guess at what you are trying to guide to is that there is special significance to what is directly seen.

No guesswork is required, and no special interpretation needed. Just answer the questions simply from your own current understanding. I might have said it before, but if you are constantly 'trying to work it out' that is not going to help.

As far as I understand, we would say 'seen' rather than 'experienced'' because 'experienced' suggests an experiencer. An experiencer is not directly seen.

As a mental exercise, yes.
Now actually examine your experience - What is apparent?

One powerful thing that illustrates this is the feeling behind the eyes that is so attractive as the the number one candidate for the self.

So there is feeling of a body? The body feels itself?
What is the 'feeling felt behind the eyes' being felt by?

I can see that the body feeling, the eyes seeing, is an idea. I am just not sure what to do with that .

Why DO anything with it?
It's simply a realisation. Convention states that there is a body here feeling, seeing, tasting and smelling etc - experiencing an external world . . . not just an idea but a reality - An absolute truth.
You have realised it's not absolute truth - It's only a mental imputation - Just an idea - No more than that.
This is something that the standard person in the street would argue with.
(Or haven't your realised this yet . . . what I just mentioned?)

Xain ♥

[Mav]

Hello Xain,

Now actually examine your experience - What is apparent?

I was talking about the experiencer wasn't I. As far as I can see there is no experiencer apparent. Things like sight, sound, feeling are not attached to something else. For example sound is one thing. There is just sound. Not a hearer of sound. There is no evidence of sound coming to a particular point. A sound might be located, i.e. from over there, but the whole experience is one thing, not divided into sound, hearer of sound. There is nothing that can be 'seen' that can be identified as hearer of sound. Two things trouble me about this, the thought that I may not be looking clearly and accurately, and forgetting this for most of the time.

One powerful thing that illustrates this is the feeling behind the eyes that is so attractive as the the number one candidate for the self.

So there is feeling of a body? The body feels itself?
What is the 'feeling felt behind the eyes' being felt by?

I don't think there is a body feeling, only sensations. The feeling behind the eyes is sensation and and sense of location.

This is something that the standard person in the street would argue with.
(Or haven't your realised this yet . . . what I just mentioned?)

Yes, I think there would be a lack of understanding in most cases.

Thanks and best wishes,
Mav.

[Xain]

A sound might be located, i.e. from over there, but the whole experience is one thing, not divided into sound, hearer of sound.

Are you talking from a mental stand-point - Or is your current experience like this? (Or perhaps both?)

There is no evidence of sound coming to a particular point.

You said 'from over there' - Over there from what?

I don't think there is a body feeling, only sensations. The feeling behind the eyes is sensation and and sense of location.

You said 'I don't think' . . . are you not 100% certain of this?
Is 'This body is feeling' the absolute truth? Or just a mental imputation / an idea / a belief only?

Xain ♥

[Mav]

A sound might be located, i.e. from over there, but the whole experience is one thing, not divided into sound, hearer of sound.

Are you talking from a mental stand-point - Or is your current experience like this? (Or perhaps both?)

The sound being over there adds a bit of complexity. My actual current experience (as I am writing this sentence) is hard to define. However If there is focus it seems to be one thing but it isn't clear.

You said 'from over there' - Over there from what?

That isn't clear on any level. I think you are saying that it is an idea that it is over there?

I don't think there is a body feeling, only sensations. The feeling behind the eyes is sensation and a sense of location.

You said 'I don't think' . . . are you not 100% certain of this?
Is 'This body is feeling' the absolute truth? Or just a mental imputation / an idea / a belief only?

Not 100% certain. There is a strong feeling of unease. I feel like an amateur. This stance comes from looking then thinking about it. It is a belief. I wouldn't even call it a belief. It is a working assumption. I am not sure how it would be anything more. I look at the evidence, then try to be logical. What else can I do? Sensation can be 'seen'. The body can't be 'seen' through sensation. This could be wrong, even though it is how it is seen and understood at the current time. You might point out something that undermines this working assumption.
Thank you,
Mav.

[Xain]

Hi Mav

I hate to put a downer on proceedings but we are now into our seventh page and I feel no progress is being made.
I had a chat with another guide who looked over our conversation, and suggested that it might be best to call it a day at this point. However, I don't want to just disappear without attempting to give you some further pointers.

Most of this inquiry is getting you to examine your experience and compare it with the beliefs you have. I think you've already done this sort of inquiry with two guides already so I was attempting to see where the issue or confusion was with your current state.

In our dialogue, I was trying to get a handle on 'where you are' in your understanding of things and what you have realised.
This has been almost impossible to do.
Your answers are continually 'I'm not sure', 'I have no understanding of this', 'This isn't clear to me on any level', 'I'm not certain'.
Whilst on the the one hand, I appreciate your honest replies if you truly don't understand or are not clear about these things. It is just that it makes it impossible to progress.
I'm desperately trying to get you '100% clear' on at least a few areas, but I am failing to do this - Even on the most basic things that I am getting you to look at.

You seem to want to continually analyse and over think things and makes things far more complicated than they are.
I have been guilty of doing the same in our chat because when you say you don't understand what I am suggesting, I feel the need to explain and go into some-what unnecessary detail to try to get you to grasp something so we can proceed.
This doesn't seem to work either.

For example:

I asked 'You said 'from over there' - Over there from what?'

This was an opportunity for you to examine your experience and tell me what you are referring to - I need to know what you are talking about - The answer I was hoping for from you was for you to tell me what it was 'Over there from'.

You replied 'That isn't clear on any level. I think you are saying that it is an idea that it is over there? '

I am confused why you just didn't answer my question - Instead of considering what I had said and attempting to answer, you just turned it around and asked ME a question. This doesn't progress things. This is your guidance.
I am a guide, and I am asking you to look - I can't do the work for you.

I am saying these things in order to try to help you, but I must say that right now I don't have the drive to proceed and I feel it would not get us any further.

If you have a solid interest in these things, then perhaps reading or re-reading some of the guidance threads in the archive might help you. It might just make something 'click' for you which I can't quite make happen.

Here are two threads:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5575

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5816

Perhaps you could return and continue in a few months time after a break and see if things are any better.
Xain ♥