Is that so?

[forgetmenot]

Hi Stello,

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual (“I/me”), and never has been?

Yes it has been clearly seen. Temporarily.

At this stage of seeing, there is going to be yo-yoing. I think I have said it before…that seeing through the illusory self is a beginning and not an ending. Seeing through the illusory self is one of many realisations….albeit the main realisation. However, you will need to continue to LOOK everyday to ‘strengthen’ the seeing. How can many years of ‘thinking’ you are a separate self dissolve in a couple of months?

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

No. (That is true for me right now and also sort of an ideal answer, because the 'Stello character' is still acting as if he was choosing all the time.)

There was no Stello before this exploration started and there is no one now…so why would the idea of Stello being a chooser disappear?

That will still seemingly happen, however, there is now a knowing/seeing via AE that it is just story…is there not?

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Yes. The 'Stello character' in every day life is still behaving exactly as he did before this investigation. Only when thoughts are leading to any kind of suffering and he gets aware of it, he looks and then the suffering seems to diminish. Is it supposed to be like that? I can't find anything that would want to hold on to the false beliefs and yet something does. There is no Stello and he won't admit it.

At the very start of the exploration I addressed expectations. There is an expectation that an ILLUSORY character should somehow change behaviour! Behaviour either changes or it doesn’t…but the point is…to LOOK for that which has behaviours!

There is an expectation that once the illusory self was seen through...that a saint should appear? That somehow what Stello didn't like about Stello would just disappear? There was no Stello to begin with..and what exactly is it that wants Stello's behaviour to change? Is there anyone/anything that controls what happens in the dream and to whether Stello's behaviour is good or bad? And what is it exactly that determines behaviour?


And I am glad to see that you LOOK to see what it is that ‘suffers’ instead of waiting for ‘suffering’ to end! In seeing there is no one suffering, you are further cementing the seeing of no self! And this is a good thing!

And since there is no Stello…then how is ‘he’ going to admit there is no Stello????

Do you notice a difference now, to when you first started this exploration?

The difference is that now I have a tool called 'looking' which I am using whenever I find the time to cultivate the new sense of not being a character called Stello.

Yes, that is great, however, it is the LOOKING that is required...so finding the time is perhaps the priority since you want to stop yo-yoing. LOOKING needs to be done consistently and constantly - day in and day out!

So, at the beginning you wanted to feel less anxious about the past and the future…how is that anxiety now?

How is the seeking…has that diminished?

Love, Kay
xx

[Stello]

Hello Kay,

That will still seemingly happen, however, there is now a knowing/seeing via AE that it is just story…is there not?

Yes.

There is an expectation that once the illusory self was seen through...that a saint should appear?

:-) Not so much anymore, but yes there's at least an expectation that something should change significantly.

That somehow what Stello didn't like about Stello would just disappear?

Yes. Haha. I wasn't quite aware of it.

There was no Stello to begin with..and what exactly is it that wants Stello's behaviour to change?

There is nothing that wants anything. But Kay, when I am hungry, there's got to be something that wants to eat. Or at least something has got to be in everybody that wants to breathe, right?
How is that different from wanting anything else? Okay one could say that behavior is just a concept while eating and breathing is real. But the sense of wanting is not so different.

Is there anyone/anything that controls what happens in the dream and to whether Stello's behaviour is good or bad?

No.

And what is it exactly that determines behaviour?

There is nothing.

And since there is no Stello…then how is ‘he’ going to admit there is no Stello????

I know. That sentence just came to mind and I thought it expresses the situation very well. Never mind.

So, at the beginning you wanted to feel less anxious about the past and the future…how is that anxiety now?

Much better.

How is the seeking…has that diminished?

Yes it has. Since I am not gathering spiritual information from various teachers anymore, the seeking has been replaced by looking. It's a relief. Because of you. Thanks.

Bye for now,
Stello

[forgetmenot]

Hello Stello,

There is an expectation that once the illusory self was seen through...that a saint should appear?

:-) Not so much anymore, but yes there's at least an expectation that something should change significantly.

And can you share with me what you were wanting to change significantly, please?

Do you want the identification with an “I/self” to stop as proof that you have 100% clearly seen that there is no self? But that idea/thought is just another thought bubble, and is seen in utter clarity. Even the idea that something is identifying with thought is just an idea. There is NOTHING here that can identify with thought. Only thought says that anything is identifying as anything.

That somehow what Stello didn't like about Stello would just disappear?

Yes. Haha. I wasn't quite aware of it.

And what exactly is it that thinks about Stello or has preferences to how Stello should or shouldn’t be?

There was no Stello to begin with..and what exactly is it that wants Stello's behaviour to change?

There is nothing that wants anything. But Kay, when I am hungry, there's got to be something that wants to eat. Or at least something has got to be in everybody that wants to breathe, right? How is that different from wanting anything else? Okay one could say that behavior is just a concept while eating and breathing is real. But the sense of wanting is not so different.

And what says that exactly?
And what is the AE of ‘hungry’ and the AE of ‘eating’?
And what is the AE of breathing?

Is there anyone/anything that controls what happens in the dream and to whether Stello's behaviour is good or bad?

No.

And what exactly is it that has preferences? If I ask you to pick a number between 1 and 20…why did you choose that number, because it’s your favourite number? And if the answer is ‘yes’, it is your favourite number…how is that known? Was there a ‘you’ who chose it, or did it just appear?

There are thoughts about ‘behaviour’ and there are thoughts about good and bad behaviour, however, does experience care what actually appears?

And what is it exactly that determines behaviour?

There is nothing.

What is the AE of ‘behaviour’?

And since there is no Stello…then how is ‘he’ going to admit there is no Stello????

I know. That sentence just came to mind and I thought it expresses the situation very well. Never mind.

So…a thought appears saying that ‘Stello is not admitting there is no Stello’…who is that thought appearing to exactly, and what is choosing to have that thought? Are you not ‘aware’ of that thought appearing?

Even though you don't choose what thought appears, is there a dividing line to the knowing of the thought and the thought itself? Is there a border where thought stops and the knowing of it begins?

So, at the beginning you wanted to feel less anxious about the past and the future…how is that anxiety now?

Much better.

Great to hear :)

How is the seeking…has that diminished?

Yes it has. Since I am not gathering spiritual information from various teachers anymore, the seeking has been replaced by looking. It's a relief. Because of you. Thanks.

You’re welcome! Glad to hear it :)

Love, Kay
xx

[Stello]

Hello Kay,

And can you share with me what you were wanting to change significantly, please?

I want the manifestation of seeing through the illusory self without having to look. As I mentioned before in everyday life I catch myself many times a day being the illusory self and then I need to look and investigate. I just don't get why it's not going to stick. It doesn't make sense, because I've seen it clearly (that there is no person Stello) and yet I keep losing myself in the dream state.

And what exactly is it that thinks about Stello or has preferences to how Stello should or shouldn’t be?

It's that which doesn't even exist when I am looking for it.
When I don't look it seems real.

There was no Stello to begin with..and what exactly is it that wants Stello's behaviour to change?

It's Stello. The one who isn't there. Still, he only wants things, when I am not looking, because when I look - he's not real.

And what says that exactly?

Thought does.

And what is the AE of ‘hungry’ and the AE of ‘eating’?

Both sensation + thought.

And what is the AE of breathing?

Sensation + thought.

And what exactly is it that has preferences?

The (non-existent) character Stello has lots of things he likes and also lots of things he dislikes. So Stello has preferences. Don't you (Kay) have them too?

If I ask you to pick a number between 1 and 20…why did you choose that number, because it’s your favourite number?

I have no idea why 17 came up. Maybe it's Stello's favorite number. I didn't pick it.

And if the answer is ‘yes’, it is your favourite number…how is that known?

Thought says so.

Was there a ‘you’ who chose it, or did it just appear?

It just appeared.

What is the AE of ‘behaviour’?

Thought.

Even though you don't choose what thought appears, is there a dividing line to the knowing of the thought and the thought itself?

No line. It's the same.

Is there a border where thought stops and the knowing of it begins?

No border. It's happening simultaneously.

Bye for now,
Stello

[forgetmenot]

And can you share with me what you were wanting to change significantly, please?

I want the manifestation of seeing through the illusory self without having to look. As I mentioned before in everyday life I catch myself many times a day being the illusory self and then I need to look and investigate. I just don't get why it's not going to stick. It doesn't make sense, because I've seen it clearly (that there is no person Stello) and yet I keep losing myself in the dream state.

Once seeing through the illusory self has been truly seen, not just accepted as a theoretical possibility but actually seen to be the case, the belief in a self (which is all “the self” ever was) GRADUALLY (or in some cases, dramatically) falls away. Our natural state remains; pure being, devoid of conceptual confusion, ultimately beyond description. The key word here is GRADUALLY. I am sure I told you that seeing through the illusory self is a beginning and not an ending. Seeing through the illusory self is a major realisation, but there are other realisations that will continue to happen. There is no time-frame to when everything is seen with utter clarity and knowing...it happens when it happens.

Seeing through the illusory self for what it really is – a story – does not mean that your life is suddenly upgraded in every conceivable way. Old habits, beliefs, programming and conditioning will very probably remain in place. Awakening from the story of you allows old patterns to drop away quickly. The foundation upon which these patterns were based is gone.

And I will ask you to answer the following questions again, as you didn't LOOK Stello, you answered these from frustrations. A non-existent character has preferences...really? Please LOOK and answer from LOOKING. I understand this gets frustrating, however, LOOK for that which can become frustrated instead of just going with the frustration to vent your frustrations.

And what exactly is it that thinks about Stello or has preferences to how Stello should or shouldn’t be?

There was no Stello to begin with..and what exactly is it that wants Stello's behaviour to change?

And what exactly is it that has preferences? (Go back and do the exercises on choice if you aren't sure about this one!)

If I ask you to pick a number between 1 and 20…why did you choose that number, because it’s your favourite number?

Love, Kay
xx

[Stello]

Hello Kay,

And what exactly is it that thinks about Stello or has preferences to how Stello should or shouldn’t be?

I can't find anything. It's only thought saying what's good and what's bad. There are no preferences in AE.

There was no Stello to begin with..and what exactly is it that wants Stello's behaviour to change?

There is no AE of wanting. It's just thought saying what should be.

And what exactly is it that has preferences?

There is nothing that has preferences.

If I ask you to pick a number between 1 and 20…why did you choose that number, because it’s your favourite number?

The number just came up. There is a label "favorite number", but I am not the chooser. I am also not the labeler.


Best regards,
Stello

[forgetmenot]

Hello Stello,

So, the separate self has been clearly seen through, even though yo-yoing is still happening. From the point of view of this exploration, the aim has been achieved....would you agree?

Unless there is something that you would like clarified that we explored in this thread, I will give you the final questions so that we can close this thread. If you are still wanting to investigate further, than can happen either via PM or by opening another thread in "Further Investigations" which you will be privy too, once this thread has been closed.

Can you please answer the following questions in some detail.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Love, Kay
xx

[Stello]

Hello Kay,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate self and there never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is based on conditioning and false assumptions. From the beginning of a human's life it is being told and taught that it is a separate, self-responsible entity. First and foremost by giving it its very own name. Once a human being has an understanding of 'me' the illusory separate self has been established. And with the self comes the other, which is everything but self.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It's a relief. Seeking (gathering spiritual information) has been replaced by looking (what the actual experience is).

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There was one sentence you wrote that had a profound impact: "Thought is not aware, so it's useless as a means of knowing the truth."

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for? d) Give examples from experience.

A) Decision, intention, free will, choice and control don't exist.
B) Things (all of them) just happen. I don't know how it works. Everything appears and disappears in awareness. That's it.
C) I am responsible for nothing. I have no control over anything, so how could I ever be responsible?

6) Anything to add?

Thank you so much Kay for being my guide, for your patience and for your love. I am very grateful.

Bye for now,
Stello

[forgetmenot]

Hey Stello,

Thank you for your responses. Would you be able to give an example from your current experience to how it is seen that there is no free will, responsibility, choice, and decisions...and that life just is, please.

Love, Kay
xx

[Stello]

Hello Kay,

Would you be able to give an example from your current experience to how it is seen that there is no free will, responsibility, choice, and decisions...and that life just is, please.

Waking up in the morning, going to the bathroom, brushing my teeth...
...doing all kinds of stuff throughout the day until I fall asleep again.
Whatever I do or don't do just happens in the same way as thought appears and disappears. A 'decision' is thought content. That thought content gives the impression of making choices and decisions through free will, but this is just a story that I no longer believe in, because I cannot find a chooser in actual experience. At one point the thought "I choose this or that!" appears and actions follow accordingly. That's it.
So everything is happening without control. We have no say at all (...couldn't if we wanted to). Hence no responsibility.
I don't know what else to say about this, but I will gladly try and answer your follow up questions if you ask more specifically.

Bye for now,
Stello

[forgetmenot]

Thank-you Stello! I am now going to ask the other guides to have a look to make sure that I haven't missed out on taking you through anything, and that I have pointed adequately to ensure that you have clearly seen. This may take a couple of days, but I will get back to with either further questions or to let you know what happens next.

Love, Kay
xx

[forgetmenot]

Hi Stello,

There are no further questions for you.....welcome to LU.

Thank you for the privilege of walking with you, to and through the gateless gate. I really appreciated your willingness to LOOK. I have sent you a PM via the forum with information about being added to LU Aftercare.

I look forward to seeing you there, and if not, I will remain in contact with you via the forums PM's.

Love, Kay
Xx