Zero lower bound

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Abraxaz
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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Abraxaz » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:23 pm

But that IS a personal thought story.
Perhaps you want to reconsider what you saying - Go back to the exercises we did on thoughts - See if anything is clear.
this was simply stating that thoughts of the self happen


I'm sorry - I am trying to gauge your realisation, but I can't understand this line.
Sorry, that was a mis type. This was trying to get at the idea that a relationship is not a mystical union of two souls - this is a concept created by the idea of a self.


Rain is caused by various weather conditions. There are world forces making it happen.
Traffic is caused by people driving cars. To say 'nothing makes it happen' . . . well it would need people to be driving, else there would be no traffic. Of course things make it happen.
Sure, rain is caused by weather and traffic by cars. And what caused those things to come to be? On and on. When I said, I don't know, I meant, I don't know the root cause of why all things happen. in a more simple way, "what is raining?" nothing is raining. Raining. The idea in opposite would sound like this: Not, raining on me, or on you, or not rain sent to us from god after the rain dance, and not sent to us by El nino (weather conditions that have names)

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Xain
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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Xain » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:05 pm

this was simply stating that thoughts of the self happen
Do they happen to an inherent person or self?
Is 'I am having thoughts' anything more than an idea?
If it is, then perhaps 'They are having thoughts is also an idea?'
On and on. When I said, I don't know, I meant, I don't know the root cause of why all things happen.
Saying 'I don't know what makes it happen' is different to 'Nothing makes it happen'.
'Nothing makes it happen' is a positive claim that requires proof.
Within this guidance, it should be clear that anything suggested as an 'I' or a 'self' doing something is from thoughts - It is only an idea / belief (e.g. I am moving the arm).
There is no one that can know the self that I had imagined.
Let's being with 'I'.
Is there an 'I' (an inherent self) here that imagines, thinks or knows?
I have no self - they had no self.
What 'I' (inherent self) has a self?
As for what are my responsibilities, I've been wondering about this. This seems to lead back to an idea of the self - but it may not.
What 'I' (inherent self) is here that has responsibilities?

Xain ♥

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Abraxaz
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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Abraxaz » Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:02 am

I'm wondering if the problem we are having is one of my seeing or the ability to express it in a clear way. It could be both or either, I suppose.
Do they happen to an inherent person or self?
Is 'I am having thoughts' anything more than an idea?
If it is, then perhaps 'They are having thoughts is also an idea?'
This is a good example of the question above. how to talk about this? Best to say - thinking happens? That avoids the need for thoughts happening to me or to you or to anyone.
Saying 'I don't know what makes it happen' is different to 'Nothing makes it happen'.
'Nothing makes it happen' is a positive claim that requires proof.
Within this guidance, it should be clear that anything suggested as an 'I' or a 'self' doing something is from thoughts - It is only an idea / belief (e.g. I am moving the arm).
Quite right. I said both things. to clarify, I don't know why things happen - just that things happen.

The last three questions are all aiming at the same thing, it seems. Using the "I' here is just a place holder so we can talk.

No inherent self thinks or knows. No inherent self has any responsibilities for what is happening in the world.

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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Xain » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:04 am

Thanks for your replies - It has cleared up a lot of things.
As for what are my responsibilities, I've been wondering about this. This seems to lead back to an idea of the self - but it may not. I understand that that there is not an I controlling the world, but it seems that a failure of understanding of non self may itself be a condition for certain things happening and that in it's understanding other things more likely to happen.
In a purely descriptive way, I understand what you are saying.
The guiding questions were specifically an opportunity for you to show what you have realised to be the case.

What 'I' has responsibilities?
Is 'non-self' an understanding i.e. a piece of knowledge? Or is it more than that?

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Abraxaz
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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Abraxaz » Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:37 pm

What 'I' has responsibilities?
Is 'non-self' an understanding i.e. a piece of knowledge? Or is it more than that?
No 'I' has responsibilities, that would imply a control that is seen to be absent. How can one be responsible for things that can not be controlled?

That said, the second question is the one that has been on my mind for the past few days after seeing what you were pointing at. What are the implications of this? It does not seem like it is a piece of knowledge per se. Answering this seems to be the crux of the contemplative life.

What I was getting at was that it may be a condition like other conditions. It may be more like clear seeing. In the classic story about seeing a rope at night and thinking it is a snake (or the opposite)- knowing what a rope is, knowing what a snake is does not help. The ability to see clearly, what the true nature of the coiled object on the floor, is not knowledge but sets the conditions for right action. in that way, non self is not so much an understanding but an absence of an illusion

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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Xain » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:21 pm

Good - Thank you for clearing all that up.

I hope this is not a bind, but could have a try at answering the last three questions again, please? Try to answer from what you have realised.

4) Was there something specific you looked into or something that was mentioned that made you fully realise? - Was there a specific moment where you 'tipped over' into realising 'no self'?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control as you understand it now. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if you can, and explain what you have realised.

6) Do you have anything further you would like to add?

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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Abraxaz » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:59 pm

Sorry for the break. I had been taking some time to go over the guidance to this point and to reevaluate it. I think my response "what I feel responsible for" may have been problematic. Feeling responsible is also a form of control.

Here is the last part as asked for.
4) Was there something specific you looked into or something that was mentioned that made you fully realise? - Was there a specific moment where you 'tipped over' into realising 'no self'?
It seemed fairly obvious that senses such as seeing and hearing were not dependent on a self. It was harder for me to see that awareness and thoughts were the same way. This was the key to seeing this concept for me.
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control as you understand it now. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if you can, and explain what you have realised.
Intention, free will, choice and control are thoughts that happen after an event. I don't know what makes things happen or how it works, only that things are happening. I am not causing them to happen or responsible for them happening - this is the control illusion coming back again.


this seems rather brief, but was not sure what else to add.

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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Xain » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:25 pm

Sorry for the break. I had been taking some time to go over the guidance to this point and to reevaluate it. I think my response "what I feel responsible for" may have been problematic. Feeling responsible is also a form of control.
Sorry for my delay in responding also. I have been away on a ten day retreat and only just returned.
It was harder for me to see that awareness and thoughts were the same way.
We can say that the idea of a personal awareness may come up in the content of thoughts.
Is there a personal awareness you can find?
Intention, free will, choice and control are thoughts that happen after an event.
Ok, good.
Is your understanding this then - Something happens, and then a thought appears afterwards suggesting 'I made that happen'.
So the 'I' is an illusion created by the belief in that thought content being true?
Does that make sense? Is that the level of your current understanding?

Could such thought appears also DURING the event?
Are these thoughts appearing to a real self?
Is there a real self believing them?
Let's say that NO thoughts at all appear after (or during) an event . . . what about intention, free-will, choice and control then?
I am not causing them to happen or responsible for them happening - this is the control illusion coming back again.
Yes, I understand.
Perhaps we could go a little deeper here also . . . would it be some-sort of illusion coming back if the content of the thoughts said 'I didn't make that happen'? Would that be a reference to an inherent self also (one that ISN'T responsible)?

Xain ♥

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Abraxaz
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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Abraxaz » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:39 am

We can say that the idea of a personal awareness may come up in the content of thoughts.
Is there a personal awareness you can find?
no. Awareness is not personal - as in belonging to me or created by me or happening *to* me. being aware is a constantly changing process, like seeing and hearing.
Is your understanding this then - Something happens, and then a thought appears afterwards suggesting 'I made that happen'.
So the 'I' is an illusion created by the belief in that thought content being true?
Does that make sense? Is that the level of your current understanding?
Almost. It includes this idea. But it is also a function of believing that the whole of experience has a focal point - the self. This is what is meant by " I am seeing" or "I feel angry" The idea that these things are happening *to* me.

So as to
Could such thought appears also DURING the event?
Are these thoughts appearing to a real self?
Is there a real self believing them?
Yes, I suppose that it could be happening during the event - but if it happens right after the event it may not be something that can be seen or be discerned as different (the way a P and an F may look the same on an eye chart from a distance)

Questions about our these thoughts appearing to a real self, is problematic. By definition, it sets up subject and object. It is this very construction that is at the heart of illusion. The same goes for a real self believing them.

would it be some-sort of illusion coming back if the content of the thoughts said 'I didn't make that happen'? Would that be a reference to an inherent self also (one that ISN'T responsible)?
Yes, it would. It is just as true that there is no "I" that makes things happen or does not make things happen. Again, each construction creates a subject and an object. I think this may be why this is so hard to talk about. All language requires this type of construction and it is difficult to communicate through writing or speaking without it. But language is not itself reality in the same way a map is not the territory it describes. The inherent error in saying "I make this happen" or "I didn't make that happen" Is that it implies a separation which is not real. In the most basics sense, the self arises when there is the idea of something inherently being outside existence. This is why even the idea of "I am existence" is also wrong. Its just another complex formulation of the same mistake. There is a process or something happening. but this body, these thoughts, these feelings, this awareness is not separate from it, this is why there is no self. not because there is not a body or feelings, thoughts or awareness, but because these things share the The idea of stream entry seems to point at this in an elegant way. If i am water in a stream, which part of the river am I? that question makes no sense in the same way that the question about thoughts appearing to a real self does not make sense. Water is real, the river is real. Speaking of them as separate things is the delusion.

Let's say that NO thoughts at all appear after (or during) an event . . . what about intention, free-will, choice and control then?
If no thoughts appear after or during an event then nothing has changed. maybe this is why its described as a gateless gate. Im not sure I understand intention, free will or choice outside of thought. These all have the same quality of separation. Intention is: I will do this. Free will is : I decided this should happen and not that. etc Each is a thought about causation, an interpretation that takes as its premise a duality that cant be seen to be there.

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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Xain » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:28 am

Almost. It includes this idea. But it is also a function of believing that the whole of experience has a focal point - the self. This is what is meant by " I am seeing" or "I feel angry" The idea that these things are happening *to* me.
I understand what you mean.
Forgive me if I've already mentioned this, but 'locatedness' is something for later examination.
At this stage, it may be that there appears to be something 'here' that is experiencing a world 'out there', particular noticeable in the sense of 'seeing'. This is something to be examined later. This would be another investigation.
It's not something to worry about right now.
I need you to get to a position whereby it is clear for you that the current experience isn't being experienced by a separate 'thing' (be it 'I' or 'body'). Or perhaps, that the suggestion that 'I' or 'The body' IS experiencing is only an illusion caused by the content of thoughts being believed in.
Questions about our these thoughts appearing to a real self, is problematic. By definition, it sets up subject and object. It is this very construction that is at the heart of illusion. The same goes for a real self believing them.
You are right. It's where talking about this stuff becomes tricky.

Even my suggestion 'Have you seen through the illusion' becomes a source of contention.
I often say 'You see through the illusion when you realise that there is no 'You' (inherent self) that can see through an illusion'.
I think this may be why this is so hard to talk about
Yes indeed :-)
This is why even the idea of "I am existence" is also wrong. Its just another complex formulation of the same mistake.
Yes, it is :-) Another identification.
I would suggest that understanding 'Emptiness' would be the path for you. This is the realisation that all things lack a real concrete existence. All things are imputed by the mind. Nothing has inherent existence . . . or another way to put it . . . nothing has existence 'from it's own side'.

How are things?
You seem quite clear?
Anything else to ask?
The further six questions may bring up many other areas that we can explore if things don't seem clear for you.

Xain ♥

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Abraxaz
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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Abraxaz » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:29 pm

I would suggest that understanding 'Emptiness' would be the path for you. This is the realisation that all things lack a real concrete existence. All things are imputed by the mind. Nothing has inherent existence . . . or another way to put it . . . nothing has existence 'from it's own side'.
After reading this, I would say the key thing that help me see clearly was understanding impermanence As I came to see it in my meditative practice. Watching thoughts come and go, watching feelings come and go. In sitting, it became clearer I did not control these things. Seeing and hearing share this quality as well. During the long break in the guidance, it also became clear to me that awareness and consciousness were similar.

How are things?
You seem quite clear?
Anything else to ask?
Again, I do not want to give the impression that this is clear to me all the time. Thinking about the self is a deeply ingrained habit. I am coming to see my overall practice as seeing this more clearly during sitting and living (obviously the same thing) - sitting is just the easiest way to see it as the variables seem more limited. I'm not sure how to reconcile my desire to do this with the illusion of control.

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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Xain » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:47 pm

Thinking about the self is a deeply ingrained habit.
Yes, it is. That's one good way of putting it.
I'm not sure how to reconcile my desire to do this with the illusion of control.
Hopefully it is clear to that there is no inherent self, and therefore no inherent self with either choice or control.
However, this does not stop us talking about continued practises in a conventional way.

The 'I' thought will continue to show up and be believed in in some-what automatically. Sometimes the 'I' thought may be thought about in a negative way and mental suffering may arise (e.g. 'I am not good enough', 'I am a terrible person' etc) - That too may still happen.
If you make it a continued habit to either ignore the 'I' thought as you know it does not point to anything inherently real, or question the 'I' thought as much as you are able to . . . slowly the realisation will deepen and the 'ingrained habit' will lessen.

There are further things to examine after the gate in relation to lessening mental suffering and also to address the subject/object division that appears in experience. But first it's important to fully and clearly realise 'no self' before moving forward.

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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Abraxaz » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:21 pm

But first it's important to fully and clearly realise 'no self' before moving forward.
Yes. this is fully realized. in terms of practice, there is almost never a thought that says " I am a good person" " I am a bad person" It is not possible for me to be a thing - good bad, responsible, tall - whatever. Its not something that comes up like that.

When seen clearly "I am angry" - now appears as "this is anger" I know it will pass - like all things do- its been seen clearly. Sadly, same with joy and pleasure. The meditation feelings are no different - calm, happiness - also pass, also not me, not mine, not self.

When not seen clearly, there is more suffering, I suppose.

I think Im ready for the last 6 questions if you feel comfortable asking them

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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Xain » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:12 pm

Sure thing - Here are the first three of the six questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form (other than in the content of thoughts of course)? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience and understanding. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference (if anything) between now and before you started the guidance?

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Re: Zero lower bound

Postby Abraxaz » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:36 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form (other than in the content of thoughts of course)? Was there ever?
No. There is not a self nor has there been a self in the past.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience and understanding. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separate self arises from the false believe that this experience can be broken up in to discrete parts. It arises the moment the world is seen as subject and object. There is a functionality to this division, but it the divisions and separations are not themselves real. Much in the way that a stick with lines can be a ruler but still just a stick. All analogies with things are hard and incomplete because what is divided and separated in not a thing but a process - which is indivisible or able to be partitioned in to parts (like a self and outside world as separate - this type of division )

This understanding is based on seeing what is not there. this must be why the start of guidance is often is "what is here?" and then to see that the self is NOT there. Starting with things that feel more external (but are not) like seeing and hearing, but then understanding that awareness, consciousness, desires etc also are absent of this quality of separateness as well, what is not present is more clear.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference (if anything) between now and before you started the guidance?
There are two things I feel after seeing this. The first thing I see is when the self is present in thoughts - when I have dropped into habits of thinking this way, I can see it now - I see that habits are strong. The other is the feeling that comes from not believing it - which is an absent of a feeling. the removal of responsibility for the course of the world - is a good example- it is an unloading of a burden. the understanding that feelings and awareness are changing and impersonal makes me feel untethered - consciousness that is not not rooted in a thought or feeling that is known to pass- that is seen not to be who I am - is transient and without substance.

in my sitting practice this has given me roads of inquiry. In a mundane way when I feel tired - "what is tired?" "what is hurting?" and in the end, the all encompassing "what is this?" I see this question as the result of seeing that feelings, thoughts, will, things that are sensed, are not personal or belonging to me in a separate way - without that construct, this question presents itself more naturally. If this is consciousness is not me -what is this? Being with this experience - not separated or apart from it - is what is being developed. a new habit.


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