Is that so?

[forgetmenot]

Hey Stello,

Here is an interesting exercise in how labels do not have a one-to-one correspondence with reality.

I like this exercise. It's irritating at first , but it clearly shows that there is nothing really happening at all and everything is just a story.

Yes, exactly. THIS/experience/awareness (whatever you call it) cannot be affected by anything that it appears as! Experience does not experience itself. For something to experience something, it would have to be outside of the experience, which would equate to separation. Plus there is no experience + experiencer of experience, as that also equates to two!

What is it exactly that can became “irritated”?

The label ‘irritated’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of irritation
The sensation labelled ‘irritated’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of irritation
The image labelled ‘body/me’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of an irritated person
The thoughts about being ‘irritated’ is the AE of thought.

So in actual experience, can anything be found that is ‘irritated’? What is actually appearing is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about irritation.
Is this clear?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Labels have no effect whatsoever on reality.

Yes, exactly!

Okay, so to date we have looked at thought and control, are there any questions?
Also, we looked at ‘fear’…what is happening with ‘fear’ with you?
Just give me an update to where you are at with this all.

Love, Kay
xx

[Stello]

Hello Kay,

So in actual experience, can anything be found that is ‘irritated’? What is actually appearing is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about irritation.
Is this clear?

Yes Kay. It's clear.

Okay, so to date we have looked at thought and control, are there any questions?
Also, we looked at ‘fear’…what is happening with ‘fear’ with you?
Just give me an update to where you are at with this all.

The things you are pointing to are clearly seen (at least when I do the exercises and investigations). Still the 'me story' is there and believed in (at least when I am not doing the exercises and investigations).
The question is: "How does the 'me story' fit into reality?"
I mean there's this conversation between you (your 'me story') and me ( my 'me story'), right?
As soon as I am trying to communicate, the 'me story' appears. So another question would be: "How can we utilize our brains and communicate without getting sucked into the story?"
See now that I have written these words I feel that I could go through them, anticipate what you'll probably answer (or rather questioning about it) and then I would have to delete all of it, because the whole thing isn't true (I mean I would see that it is just a story, like everything else).
Right now there's fear that I am stuck in this awful situation of only being able to realize truth afterwards. And yes, if I look at it there is no fear at all.

Best regards,
Stello

[forgetmenot]

Hey Stello,

Okay, so to date we have looked at thought and control, are there any questions?
Also, we looked at ‘fear’…what is happening with ‘fear’ with you?
Just give me an update to where you are at with this all.

The things you are pointing to are clearly seen (at least when I do the exercises and investigations). Still the 'me story' is there and believed in (at least when I am not doing the exercises and investigations).

Seeing through the illusory self is only one of a whole series of potential realisations, although it is the crucial realisation. The ‘seeing’ has to deepen. This realisation is like the de-coring of an onion. Psychotherapy and self-improvement models work on the outerlayers of the onion and work their way inwards to improve the core of the person. However, LU is about removing the core, seeing that there is no person, and what is left is the outerlayers of the onion...and although the outerlayers need to be removed, they no longer have a core to adhere to, so they begin to fall away, however, this still takes work as well. And that work is the continual LOOKING on a daily basis must continue to happen after the recognition has occurred. It is like ‘learning’ anything new, it has to become a habit. The more you LOOK and see there is no separate self, the deeper the seeing becomes and one day, you just notice that there is a continual awareness that the character is not you.

The yo-yoing will continue to happen until it doesn’t! Most of what we explore during this exploration will continue to yo-yo. The visceral occurs when it occurs…that is why after realising that there is no separate self, the LOOKING must continue. The realisation itself won’t ‘stick’ either, it does take This exploration is a beginning, not an ending.

You will notice that this is very repetitive and it just keeps pointing you back to what IS. It is an ‘unlearning’ of all those unquestioned beliefs and assumptions, until you see what actually just IS.

The question is: "How does the 'me story' fit into reality?"
I mean there's this conversation between you (your 'me story') and me ( my 'me story'), right?
As soon as I am trying to communicate, the 'me story' appears. So another question would be: "How can we utilize our brains and communicate without getting sucked into the story?"
See now that I have written these words I feel that I could go through them, anticipate what you'll probably answer (or rather questioning about it) and then I would have to delete all of it, because the whole thing isn't true (I mean I would see that it is just a story, like everything else).

Well how wonderful is that….that you already recognise that it is just all story! I think that is brilliant!

There was no separate Stello before this exploration took place and there isn’t one now who is reading this! Life continues as it always has. The ‘Stello “me” story’ will continue to appear and life will seemingly continue to unfold. However, the story is seen for what it is..just that..a story. That doesn’t mean that Stello will disappear, or his parents will no longer be his parents, or his partner no longer his partner and so on. There is just a knowing that it is all story and everything is AOK.

Right now there's fear that I am stuck in this awful situation of only being able to realize truth afterwards. And yes, if I look at it there is no fear at all.

And if you look, what is “right now there’s fear that I am stuck in this awful situation of only being able to realize truth afterwards” in actual experience?

You are going great guns and you are LOOKING really well. If these concerns and fears didn’t arise…then I would be concerned. They are all part and parcel of what arises during the exploration. The fear of ‘seeing’, the fear of not ‘seeing’ , the fear of not knowing what ‘seeing’ looks like, feels like etc. It is all normal.

Love, Kay
xx

[forgetmenot]

Hey Stello.....you ready to continue?

Love, Kay
xx

[Stello]

Hello Kay,

Yes, yes please. I (me story) was afraid that you thought I was through already. I was like "Oh no. She really thinks I am through. Is that it? Am I through? ""You are going great guns.."" and that's it? She really doesn't have a final eye opener up her sleeve?" :)))
I didn't read the other posts in the forum nor did I read much of the gateless gatecrashers PDF before because I wanted to focus on you only. So yesterday I started reading it and I was surprised how similar all posts (stories/feelings) are. So given how most processes in the PDF ended I got the impression that this is where I am.
And this morning (it's now 7:27am here in Germany) I thought: "Okay maybe I can take it from here..."

So glad we're going to continue.

Thanks Kay.
Love Stello

[forgetmenot]

Hey Stello!

Yes, yes please. I (me story) was afraid that you thought I was through already. I was like "Oh no. She really thinks I am through. Is that it? Am I through? ""You are going great guns.."" and that's it? She really doesn't have a final eye opener up her sleeve?" :)))

Haha….funny how thought brings up all these stories. And thought appeared here thinking that I had turned you off from further exploration because you weren’t interested in being an ‘onion’! :) :) :) But, the exploration certainly isn't over yet, so I thought I’d better check to see what is actually happening, as opposed to what thought stories were appearing about what might be happening! :)

So, let’s continue!

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - A chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Love, Kay
xx

[Stello]

Hello Kay,

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities appeared by themselves. No preference manifested. I thought I liked both equally.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

When I counted to five, it was like a wheel of fortune started to spin and I got excited, really curious about which drink was going to make it. No mental function or faculty doing the choosing was experienced.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

I wasn't aware of any kind of choosing. It was only afterwards when the thought "oh that's what's been chosen. But it certainly wasn't in my control (or my choice).

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Well, I didn't have a choosing kind of feeling at all during the whole exercise. You think I should repeat until that feeling comes up?

Regards,
Stello

[forgetmenot]

Hey Stello,

Well, I didn't have a choosing kind of feeling at all during the whole exercise. You think I should repeat until that feeling comes up?

Just do it once again and see how you go. This time choose something that you really like to eat, for example a piece of chocolate and say an apple. Or if you really like cheese, use a piece of cheese and an apple or something that you don’t like as much as the cheese or chocolate or whatever your favourite piece of food is.

Apply the same questions and let me know how you go.

Love, Kay
xx

[Stello]

Hi Kay,

I'm at work now and I have plans for the evening, but I will do the exercise sometime this weekend and report back to you.

Also I wanted to let you know that there's been a glimpse yesterday that lasted for about 20 minutes. I don't know how to explain what happened, though. I was thinking of the drinking choice experiment that I conducted earlier and suddenly there was clear seeing without any attachment whatsoever and it ended when the thought "Oh my god, I am going to lose my sanity." appeared, but there was only a little bit of fear, that disappeared immediately when I investigated the thought.
So this was an amazing experience and I am aware that it was 'just' an experience, but it was the first time and I think it happened because you are working with me. I'm so grateful for your guidance.

Lots of love.
Bye for now,
Stello

[forgetmenot]

Hey Stello!

Thank you for letting me know about doing the exercise on the weekend and then getting back to me. Yes, there is no way to put into words what is 'seen/recognised/realised'. Find the words is quite challenging...that is why we, here are LU can only point and you do the LOOKING so you see it for yourself.

Keep on LOOKING...you are doing great. I wait until I hear from you on the weekend :)

Love, Kay
xx

[Stello]

Hello Kay,

so I took a piece of Swiss cheese and a chocolate bar for the experiment.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities appeared by themselves, yet it felt like I was requesting them from memory: "Okay this is the Swiss cheese I like a lot. What are its qualities?"- ...and then the qualities appeared by themselves (same with the candy bar).
A preference for the cheese popped up. Actually as soon as I saw the cheese when I was taking it off the fridge, I was already tending towards it. Although during step1 I've tried my best to give the candy bar a fair chance.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

No. I didn't choose the sequence of events. I didn't even choose when the countdown would start. Step1 lasted for a certain amount of time and then I started counting. But the whole time I kind of knew I was going to pick the cheese.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

No there's no function or faculty doing the choosing. Everything in this experiment was just happening and I mean from the moment I got up from the couch until I logged into the forum so I can post my answer to you.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

It felt like I had to choose the cheese or more like I had to take/pick the cheese. Almost like a compulsion.
I don't think it is the nature of a feeling to choose. If anything the feeling is some kind of statement/choice itself.

Regards,
Stello

[forgetmenot]

Hi Stello,

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities appeared by themselves, yet it felt like I was requesting them from memory: "Okay this is the Swiss cheese I like a lot. What are its qualities?"- ...and then the qualities appeared by themselves (same with the candy bar).
A preference for the cheese popped up. Actually as soon as I saw the cheese when I was taking it off the fridge, I was already tending towards it. Although during step1 I've tried my best to give the candy bar a fair chance.

And where was this feeling/sensation that was “requesting them from memory”? Was it an actual sensation? Does the word ‘felt’ in this context refer to sensation or thought?

Memory is a conceptual framework that suggests there is a storage system and an image/thought is retrieved, however is there actual experience of one event following another? Any experience of one moment giving way to the next? Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? Look for yourself now, and see if you can find one moment turning into another, it's simple. Or do you only find this 'moment' in which thought say that it is one of many?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

No. I didn't choose the sequence of events. I didn't even choose when the countdown would start. Step1 lasted for a certain amount of time and then I started counting. But the whole time I kind of knew I was going to pick the cheese.

And what says “but the whole time I kind of knew I was going to pick the cheese”? And can a ‘feeling/knowing’ actually choose anything?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

No there's no function or faculty doing the choosing. Everything in this experiment was just happening and I mean from the moment I got up from the couch until I logged into the forum so I can post my answer to you.

Nice noticing :)

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

It felt like I had to choose the cheese or more like I had to take/pick the cheese. Almost like a compulsion.
I don't think it is the nature of a feeling to choose. If anything the feeling is some kind of statement/choice itself.

Can you clarify what you mean by “If anything the feeling is some kind of statement/choice itself”?

So, although you say that there is no one ‘choosing’, there is still an idea that you are ‘doing’ something. There still is a feeling of identification, of doership. It feels like the ‘self’ is the ‘chooser’. The idea that the preferences are coming from a past memory, and even the idea of preferences/choices itself.

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie black space).

Darkness is just a colour, like any other, no different from light. Thought labels darkness as the absence of some 'thing' but it is no less knowing/known than light is.
Empty space is no different to solid matter, it is still a some 'thing', not a lack of some 'thing'. So when the eyes are closed, what is seen is undefined, it is untrue to say that nothing is seen, there is still some ‘thing’ ie darkness/black ‘space’.

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or black space if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the blank sky?
Can you turn off seeing?

Last question, in this whole exercise, what did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

Love, Kay
xx

[Stello]

Hello Kay,

And where was this feeling/sensation that was “requesting them from memory”? Was it an actual sensation? Does the word ‘felt’ in this context refer to sensation or thought?

It wasn't a feeling. I wrote that "it 'felt' like"(out of habit), but it actually was a thought and not a feeling. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Memory is a conceptual framework that suggests there is a storage system and an image/thought is retrieved, however is there actual experience of one event following another? Any experience of one moment giving way to the next? Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? Look for yourself now, and see if you can find one moment turning into another, it's simple. Or do you only find this 'moment' in which thought say that it is one of many?

Only this moment, in which thought says it is one of many, exists.
Wow. And thank you for this 'eye opener'. You know, I've heard or read this before, but it just didn't resonate with me at the time.
I love how you (we) are taking down false beliefs.

And what says “but the whole time I kind of knew I was going to pick the cheese”? And can a ‘feeling/knowing’ actually choose anything?

Of course it is thought, that says it.
'Feeling/knowing' can't choose anything.

Can you clarify what you mean by “If anything the feeling is some kind of statement/choice itself”?

Hmm. In answering the question, if a feeling can 'choose', I asked myself what it is a feeling can do and then I came up with the idea, that a feeling is a static experience, without the option of change(because that would just be another feeling). So to whatever thoughts a feeling leads me to, the feeling itself won't change.
Maybe the way I put it before was misleading. As this attempt to explain it might be as well. It's the best I can do at this point.

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or black space if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

I see whatever is seen. There's nothing I can do about it. So no: I cannot NOT see what is seen.

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same answer. No I can't choose not to see.

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the blank sky?
Can you turn off seeing?

I can't turn off seeing.

Last question, in this whole exercise, what did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

I don't think that there was anything to choose in this whole exercise. I can't find choice at all.

Best regards,
Stello

[forgetmenot]

Hello Stello,

And where was this feeling/sensation that was “requesting them from memory”? Was it an actual sensation? Does the word ‘felt’ in this context refer to sensation or thought?

It wasn't a feeling. I wrote that "it 'felt' like"(out of habit), but it actually was a thought and not a feeling. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Lovely! Yes, a ‘feeling’ is just a thought :)

Memory is a conceptual framework that suggests there is a storage system and an image/thought is retrieved, however is there actual experience of one event following another? Any experience of one moment giving way to the next? Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? Look for yourself now, and see if you can find one moment turning into another, it's simple. Or do you only find this 'moment' in which thought say that it is one of many?

Only this moment, in which thought says it is one of many, exists.
Wow. And thank you for this 'eye opener'. You know, I've heard or read this before, but it just didn't resonate with me at the time.
I love how you (we) are taking down false beliefs.

And if you breakdown what thought says a ‘moment’ is…what is the so-called ‘moment’ presenting, what is actually always there?

And what says “but the whole time I kind of knew I was going to pick the cheese”? And can a ‘feeling/knowing’ actually choose anything?

Of course it is thought, that says it.
'Feeling/knowing' can't choose anything.

And can a thought actually choose anything?

Can you clarify what you mean by “If anything the feeling is some kind of statement/choice itself”?

Hmm. In answering the question, if a feeling can 'choose', I asked myself what it is a feeling can do and then I came up with the idea, that a feeling is a static experience, without the option of change(because that would just be another feeling). So to whatever thoughts a feeling leads me to, the feeling itself won't change.
Maybe the way I put it before was misleading. As this attempt to explain it might be as well. It's the best I can do at this point.

The feeling, although not a separate experience, has no correlation to a thought or a range of thought, or vice versa. It is only a thought that says that the feeling has something to do with the thoughts, and in this case, about the thoughts of having to choose something.

I can't turn off seeing.

Do the body’s eyes see? Is there a difference between ‘mental’ images and ‘visual’ images?

Last question, in this whole exercise, what did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

I don't think that there was anything to choose in this whole exercise. I can't find choice at all.

Yes exactly. So if you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?!

Love, Kay
xx

[Stello]

Hello Kay,

And if you breakdown what thought says a ‘moment’ is…what is the so-called ‘moment’ presenting, what is actually always there?

Breaking a 'moment' down leaves us with Actual Experience (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts).

And can a thought actually choose anything?

No it can't.

Do the body’s eyes see? Is there a difference between ‘mental’ images and ‘visual’ images?

There's a concept of the human eye and how it is supposed to work(see), but this is not my experience. In actual experience there is just seeing with no difference between mental and visual images.

So if you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?!

Nothing. Choice doesn't exist.

Regards,
Stello