Zero lower bound

[Abraxaz]

How would you know?

That's a fair point as well. I would not know either thing about the object - weather it was there or not there
Same to sounds, touch, hearing etc.

Ok, next port of call is 'choice' and 'control'. We'll do 'control' first.

This part has been harder to see.

1) Can what is making the hand / arm rise into the air (the muscles contract etc) be FOUND?

No. My first reaction is to say things like - my brain makes it move. I see from our previous discourse how that answer is an abstract thought and not proof.

2) Can an 'I', a Person, (or the body itself??) be found making that happen?

And no, I can not locate the controller for any action.

What exactly is making that happen?

I don't know. in this unknowing, there is the feeling of self and control. This is where i feel the self when I feel it. Not in the experience but here in control and choice within the experience its self.

I have been unable to see though this aspect of self.

[Xain]

No. My first reaction is to say things like - my brain makes it move. I see from our previous discourse how that answer is an abstract thought and not proof.

Yes - And good. Indeed, It is this 'additions by abstract thought' that we are directly addressing.
Would another abstract thought be 'I am making a choice'?

What proof is there that a choice is being made?
What proof is there that the arm is being controlled by something?

A choice must require a chooser. Something in control must require a controller.
Outside of abstract thoughts, can either of these be located?

Could the entirety of choice, control and the belief in a self doing either or both of these things . . . be entirely from thought!?

Xain ♥

[Abraxaz]

What proof is there that a choice is being made?

When I first performed this exercise, it seemed as if approved of choice and control was evident in the fact that I removed right arm rather than the left arm. Examining closer, that the arm movement was initiated by you asking me to move it in the first place. Subsequently, when I move the right arm, I'm unable to explain why or how that choice was made. All That can be known known for sure that the right arm moved.

What proof is there that the arm is being controlled by something?

None. True control would require a god-like control of Existence. I would have to be able to control you asking me to move the hand in the first place. Clearly I did not control that.

My feeling of a self, self-control, and choice,All came after the event as a way to explain it. Ignoring your request in the sequence of events help create this illusion - but it cannot be overlooked. This can go on and on for the entire sequence - how did i find you, you me, and me this site on which we are communicating etc till the moment of the hand movement.

After I wrote this, it occurred to me that I just described in a very crude way the theory of dependent origination.

Outside of abstract thoughts, can either of these be located?

No.

Could the entirety of choice, control and the belief in a self doing either or both of these things . . . be entirely from thought!?

Yes.

I have to admit that this seeing does not feel liberating - it brings up the feelings of fatalism And determinism.
If even the simplest thing such as moving my arm cannot be a function of choice and control, then clearly everything else about the self is like this Including, nature of the work I do, the relationships I have etc. Maybe the liberation comes in being free from blame, guilt etc whent these things fail. Clearly it seems wrong to take credit for them when they work out based on our conversation

[Xain]

control was evident in the fact that I removed right arm rather than the left arm

What I moved the right arm?
What I did not move the left arm?

Examining closer, that the arm movement was initiated by you asking me to move it in the first place.

Is this from thought?

Text was seen - An arm moved - A thought occurred suggesting the one caused the other.
Is it anything more than that?

After I wrote this, it occurred to me that I just described in a very crude way the theory of dependent origination.

Indeed :-)

It brings up the feelings of fatalism And determinism.

What is determinism without thoughts about future and past events?
Outside of thought . . . what?

If even the simplest thing such as moving my arm cannot be a function of choice and control, then clearly everything else about the self is like this Including, nature of the work I do, the relationships I have etc.

Sounds about right.
What choice did you have of being born?

Clearly it seems wrong to take credit for them when they work out based on our conversation

In a conventional sense, this is a conversation.
However it is clear to me that there is no choice or control in anything you see in this reply.

Maybe the liberation comes in being free from blame, guilt etc whent these things fail.

Liberation as you are describing it would only be possible if there was someone (an inherent self) that could become liberated. That there is a self here now (or previously) that is not liberated.
That could choose or control the process of liberation . . .

Xain ♥

[Abraxaz]

What I moved the right arm?
What I did not move the left arm?

This wasn't found. The constuction of a sentence to talk to you about it used "I" it could just have easily been "the arm moved" "the arm did not move"

Is this from thought?

Text was seen - An arm moved - A thought occurred suggesting the one caused the other.
Is it anything more than that?

It seems that thought is always a secondary experience - not the cause of a thing but rather the explanation for it after.

[Xain]

This wasn't found.

But you said that control was found. Where?

It seems that thought is always a secondary experience - not the cause of a thing but rather the explanation for it after.

Yes - Exactly!
But without thought . . . where is the control or the choice?
We can talk about there being choices and control . . . we can also talk about an 'I' that has these abilities.
But outside of thought . . . outside of the words in this conversation - is there an 'I' with choice? Is there an 'I' with control?
Is there an inherent self with these abilities?

In fact, let's look at thoughts right now.
Both thought and imagination can be examined in the same way.

Think a thought, or imagine an object. Anything will do.
Now inquire:

1) Can what created or 'made' that thought or imagined object be found?
2) Can what is witnessing the thought or imagined object be found?
3) What control is there to create thoughts, or to stop thoughts from appearing.
There may APPEAR to be control (through thinking about what is happening, but what do you FIND in control?)
If there was REAL control, could thoughts be completely stopped for one day?

Xain ♥

P.S. Once you have done this exercise, can you tell me what choice you had in doing it (or not doing it)?

[Abraxaz]

But you said that control was found. Where?

No control is found

But without thought . . . where is the control or the choice?

Control and choice are a function of thought. They are what is thought - so to speak.

Is there an inherent self with these abilities?

No - this is seen now.

1) Can what created or 'made' that thought or imagined object be found?

No. Thoughts and imagined objects can not be found. These things can be experienced - but are not to be found in reality.

2) Can what is witnessing the thought or imagined object be found?

No. thought and imagination are seen as an experience. They arise and pass.

3) What control is there to create thoughts, or to stop thoughts from appearing.

None. There has never been an ability to direct thoughts. There is not a knowing about how they come and go - only that they do come and go.

There may APPEAR to be control (through thinking about what is happening, but what do you FIND in control?)

True control of thoughts and feelings has no real basis in this experience as it is.

If there was REAL control, could thoughts be completely stopped for one day?

Yes, if there was real control then this would be possible. This is why it is clear that it is not true. There has never been a time without thoughts in this experience. There is a habit to say "my experience" But it is no more mine than a sunrise is mine.

[Xain]

Excellent - Again, no 'I', no seperate self was found.

Can you see that 'I am thinking' is . . . well . . . just a thought about what is assumed to be happening.
No inherently existing 'I' is found experiencing, controlling or creating thoughts.

So . . .

Right now, is there a 'real' self witnessing this writing?
Is there a 'real' self that has a choice in what to reply to this message?
Was there a 'real' self that had a choice to come here for guidance.
Is there a 'real' self AT ALL?

Notice I am saying 'real' self - This is opposed to IDEAS and THOUGHTS about one.
And those ideas and thoughts not even being witnessed by a 'real' self?

Where is the real self in all of this?

Xain ♥

[Abraxaz]

Right now, is there a 'real' self witnessing this writing?
Is there a 'real' self that has a choice in what to reply to this message?
Was there a 'real' self that had a choice to come here for guidance.
Is there a 'real' self AT ALL?

Notice I am saying 'real' self - This is opposed to IDEAS and THOUGHTS about one.
And those ideas and thoughts not even being witnessed by a 'real' self?

No. The sense of self is seen now as a collection of these things (thoughts, feelings, experiences of sights, sounds, etc) with a unifying label from thought construct. Choice is a retrospective thought - a powerful illusion.

There is a knowing - an awareness of existence. this is real - though it is not a self in the sense that it is a separate thing. But this awareness is a function of the existence that is happening- they are not separate things. just like a knot in a string is not a separate part of the string. From the vantage point of the knot the two ends of the string may seem like a beginning and an end with the knot itself being separate from the whole - but the knot is the string and there is a knot.

[Xain]

There is a knowing - an awareness of existence. this is real - though it is not a self in the sense that it is a separate thing

I think we are on different paths in relation to what you are suggesting, but that's OK and I am not going to press things further. Providing what you are suggesting / what you believe in is not something that is separate from 'that which is being seen' (for example) and is not linked to the body or to another object in some way then we're OK.

How do you feel? Any questions at this point?

Can you see / Have you realised that 'I' is an illusion created by thought?
Even to suggest that there is an 'I' that has realised something or could realise something?

Xain ♥

[Abraxaz]

Providing what you are suggesting / what you believe in is not something that is separate from 'that which is being seen' (for example) and is not linked to the body or to another object in some way then we're OK.

Maybe Im not sure what you mean here.

How do you feel? Any questions at this point?

I would describe this as a negative kind of thing. Not in the sense that it is not good or is not pleasurable, but in the sense of removing a thing. I have to admit that this view of the world is not in focus for me all the time. There is still a tendency to view the world in the old way often

Can you see / Have you realised that 'I' is an illusion created by thought?
Even to suggest that there is an 'I' that has realised something or could realise something?

Yes, I have sen that "i' is a created and habitual thing. As to the second point, it makes me wonder if I indeed missed something or have not yet seen clearly. i would not say that "I" realized something, but there is a sense that the awareness that I spoke of earlier is more direct; less filtered and overlaid by this second idea.


You mentioned that this was not connected to the body. My question is about how awareness of this experience happens without the body? without eyes, no seeing. without brain, no thinking. on and on. there is not a feeling that this experience and life is mine -or is happening to me. But there is a feeling that my awareness of it is a function of this body. This leads me to think I may have missed the point here.

[Xain]

Maybe Im not sure what you mean here.

It doesn't really matter too much.
It makes no difference to anything really.
I just needed to check you weren't referencing something separate or personal. If you are, then it's a belief that we need to investigate.

I have to admit that this view of the world is not in focus for me all the time. There is still a tendency to view the world in the old way often

I understand what you are saying - But is there a 'real you' viewing a world in one way or another?
Is there a 'real you' that is in focus, or out of focus?
Or is what you are describing simply how something appears?
Do you expect it to be different?

i would not say that "I" realized something, but there is a sense that the awareness that I spoke of earlier is more direct; less filtered and overlaid by this second idea

Where is the location of this that you speak of?
How is it known that it is less filtered and overlaid?

But there is a feeling that my awareness of it is a function of this body.

Is awareness personal?
Is it related to a body?
How so?

Xain ♥

[Abraxaz]

There was a loss at what to do next here so I think I may revert to the original instructions given to me when I started, Which was to be 100% honest with you. Form that point of view ,Ive come to see all your questions as generating answers. This seems to be a natural habit - to give answers as if there are answers to give. But I don't realy have any answers. I don't know how seeing happens, the nature of seeing , what happens when eyes are gone, when body is dies, if my awareness is personal or universal, how it relates to the body, etc no idea at all. Awareness is just another excuse or way to verbalize this.


this is not a capitulation on the exercise - just a sense that no answers seem sufficient to explain what is happening

[Xain]

Ok. It may be that your belief in awareness is causing problems.
Awareness isn't a word or concept that is used in the guidance here, specifically because it causes confusion by it having different meanings to different people at different times.
This is why I use phrases like 'What can be seen' or 'The visual sense' as these phrases have less of a chance to be misinterpreted.

How do you wish to proceed?
Has anything been realised so far?

Xain ♥

[Abraxaz]

Ok. It may be that your belief in awareness is causing problems.

this is quite possible. im wondering if "what can be seen" or "the visual sense" is different than the awareness of seeing. It seems that it is not possible to see and not know that seeing is happening.
What knows that seeing is happening?