Looking for the last parts/confirmation

[Mikeforfree]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Its about seeing that there is nobody behind the thought storys and emotions and that life is just experience and flow. Seeing this will not be a key to a blissfull life, but a start to look at life fresh

What are you looking for at LU?
I want that the endless searching for enlightment and peace stops and that there will be more acceptance to life.
I have spend quite some time looking for this "I" and never found it.
Still i feel that something is missing.
Either some excpectations from all the years of searching are in the way or fear of life without this self in thoughts.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I excpect to get some exercises from the guide to start looking in actual experience and write back what i find.
I think that there will be some things that i missed out on after reading the gateless gatecrashers and the quotes app. I expect that a guide can point me to things that i didnt look at, and hopefully the illusion of a seperate self will be gone for good.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Tried all kinds of methods, more then dozens of books, youtube videos, readed gateless gatecrashers, liberation unleashed and the enlightened quotes app.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 11

[Xain]

Hi Mike

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed - My name is Xain, and I am a guide here.

I have spend quite some time looking for this "I" and never found it.

Ok - Could you give me some idea of what you've looked into so far, and what was (or was not) found?
Could you elaborate on what or where you feel you are missing something?

Either some excpectations from all the years of searching are in the way or fear of life without this self in thoughts.

Let me reassure you that nothing is going to disappear or change.
The only thing that you are going to do is to realise what has always been the case.

Xain ♥

[Mikeforfree]

Hello Xain,

What i have looked at so far is going through different exercises for the senses for example hearing to check if there is somebody doing the hearing/seeing/touching and in all cases i saw that it was just happening.

Also with walking and driving, paying attention if there is somebody doing the action and this was never able to find somebody its just happening.

Also with making choices, choices are made and thoughts about it but i was unable to find an "i" who was making the choice.

I have read some threads on this forum and at the end the question comes: can you say with a big fat yes that there is no seperate self? My answer then is always, when i look for it i was never able to find it. But sometimes thought storys get so real and intense.

I think what could be missing is the understanding and not identifying with the thought process.
Also the need to search became less but its still there looking for this: Aha, now i got it! Moment.

[Mikeforfree]

Hello Xain,

I was reading to some of the other threads in this forum and in one thread i was reading from a guide: See what comes up after reading that there is no general manager in life and no seperate self at all.

I sat with that and i noticed a lot resistance and fear in my body coming up. I think somewhere im scared of living without any control.

[Xain]

Hi Mike

Good stuff - It looks like you've done a lot of work and inquiry into this already.

What i have looked at so far is going through different exercises for the senses for example hearing to check if there is somebody doing the hearing/seeing/touching and in all cases i saw that it was just happening.

Ok, can I ask you do something and answer honestly.

Just sit for a moment - As you sit, notice that there is an experience (all the senses added together).
The normal belief through thinking is that 'I am having this experience' or 'This body is experiencing the outside world'.
Can you find an 'I' experiencing? Can you find a 'body' experiencing the outside world?

Also with walking and driving, paying attention if there is somebody doing the action and this was never able to find somebody its just happening.

Yes. Is it clear to you that through thinking, we get the suggestions 'I am driving' or 'I am doing this action'.
Yet such an 'I', such an inherent self cannot be found?

I think somewhere im scared of living without any control.

Ok, let me mention something here.

In the usual way of thinking there is a person here, and they have control and choice.
Another way of thinking (which you are referring to in your sentence) is that there is a person here, and they do not have any control or choice.

But neither of these truly match the realisation.
Both the sentences require a person - A self - Either IN or OUT OF control.
The realisation is that there IS NO SELF. The idea of a person is an illusion.
To suggest EITHER that there is a self in control or out of control is entirely through thinking.
Does that make any sense to you at this stage?

There's lots more pointing and suggestions I could make to you, but I'll let you chew those points over for now rather than getting you bogged down in lots of things to look at and consider.

Xain ♥

[Mikeforfree]

Hello Xain,

Just sit for a moment - As you sit, notice that there is an experience (all the senses added together).
The normal belief through thinking is that 'I am having this experience' or 'This body is experiencing the outside world'.
Can you find an 'I' experiencing? Can you find a 'body' experiencing the outside world?

Did this and and i was unable to find somebody having the experience. There is just experience of sensations/hearing/seeing.

The second one is more difficult all the senses are in the body so the body must be experiencing, but in seeing there is just seeing no body doing that, same with hearing.
As for sensations, they are clearly experienced in the body so therefore the body must be experiencing sensations?

Yes. Is it clear to you that through thinking, we get the suggestions 'I am driving' or 'I am doing this action'.
Yet such an 'I', such an inherent self cannot be found?

Yes i was never able to find any "i" doing any action.
Sometimes the mind gives commentary at the exact same time or just before the action. But no seperate self doing or choosing the action.

the usual way of thinking there is a person here, and they have control and choice.
Another way of thinking (which you are referring to in your sentence) is that there is a person here, and they do not have any control or choice.

But neither of these truly match the realisation.
Both the sentences require a person - A self - Either IN or OUT OF control.
The realisation is that there IS NO SELF. The idea of a person is an illusion.
To suggest EITHER that there is a self in control or out of control is entirely through thinking.
Does that make any sense to you at this stage?

I did not look at it like this yet.
Indeed the assumption i had was that there is a still a person who has no choice, like a person thats being lived.
It makes sense but more on an intellectual level.

[Xain]

The second one is more difficult all the senses are in the body so the body must be experiencing

Through science and medical knowledge, we believe that the body houses the sense organs, and it is therefore responsible for sensing. Science is conceptual knowledge. It is built on beliefs, thoughts and ideas.
For example, the standard belief is that 'I' (the Body) is feeling an external world.

Let's do an exercise on 'feeling'.

Please close your eyes for this exercise, as the 'seeing' sense is very powerful and may take you away from answering only from the feeling sense alone.

Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.
Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? I mean, are there two things (and hand and a desk) or is there one thing - A sensation.
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

Do you find a body (hand) feeling an external world (desk)?

About choice . . .

It makes sense but more on an intellectual level

We can look at this in a while.

Xain ♥

[Mikeforfree]

Hi Xain,

1) How many things do you find? I mean, are there two things (and hand and a desk) or is there one thing - A sensation.
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

Just did the exercise and it requires quite some focus to focus on just the sensation. I understand why its required to close your eyes. Also thought interfers a lot with conclusions.

Here is what I find.
1. At first it seems like there is 2 sensations. The feeling of touching and a tingling feeling in the hand. But when further focusing it seems to be just a sensation.
2. Interesting. The hand doesnt seem to be a "thing" when focusing on the sensation. It seems there is just a sensation.
3. This seems to be more clear. Just a sensation.

Haha they say sometimes lovers "melt" when touching eachother.

Something else came to my mind after the last post about experiencing, i know this process about seeing that there is no seperate self. But would it also be correct to say that its about seeing that all there is is experience? And nobody thats experiencing? Or is there more then experience?

Thank you Xain

[Xain]

i know this process about seeing that there is no seperate self. But would it also be correct to say that its about seeing that all there is is experience? And nobody thats experiencing? Or is there more then experience?

This is certainly one way to consider things.
Some guides cling to 'all there is, is experience' as some-sort of absolute fact . . . but I tend not to attach that much stock into such phrases. Everything can be deconstructed if given enough examination. What we are examining here is 'I', the belief that what we are is a limited self, a body with a mind.

If we take as a general pointer that there is 'feeling' or there is 'experience' . . . my question to you would be, can you find what is actively performing the 'feeling' or 'experiencing' as it is usually believed to be.
The usual belief is that there is a seperate self here right now (the body) that is 'experiencing' or 'feeling' or 'seeing' etc etc
Can such a thing be found? Or are such statements just beliefs / ideas / thoughts appearing?

This seems to be more clear. Just a sensation.

Yes, good.
So from this perspective, can you see that 'hand is feeling' is only an idea - A hand (body) is not found performing a function of feeling? All that is found is 'a sensation'.

Try hearing:

Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside.
Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
3) An 'I'? A 'Body'? A Pair of Ears? A 'Person'? Can these be found? Or are they only ideas about what is assumed to be responsible'?

Do you find a body 'hearing' an external world?

(There may be a tendency to go to the 'feeling' sensations assumed to be of the head area - Check that you are not doing this - Pull away from the sensations if that is happening, as we are only referencing 'hearing' in this exercise).

Xain ♥

[Mikeforfree]

If we take as a general pointer that there is 'feeling' or there is 'experience' . . . my question to you would be, can you find what is actively performing the 'feeling' or 'experiencing' as it is usually believed to be.
The usual belief is that there is a seperate self here right now (the body) that is 'experiencing' or 'feeling' or 'seeing' etc etc
Can such a thing be found? Or are such statements just beliefs / ideas / thoughts appearing?

Cant find anybody thats performing the experience or anybody thats needed to make a certain experience.
Its all thoughts and ideas. But sometimes there is a sense of the experiencer being somewhere behind the eyes.

So from this perspective, can you see that 'hand is feeling' is only an idea - A hand (body) is not found performing a function of feeling? All that is found is 'a sensation'.

Yes indeed all that i found is a sensation.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
3) An 'I'? A 'Body'? A Pair of Ears? A 'Person'? Can these be found? Or are they only ideas about what is assumed to be responsible'?

Do you find a body 'hearing' an external world?

I found this one easier then the touching exercise
1. No there is just sounds.
2. No nothing is doing the hearing there are just sounds in space without location.
3. Yes its all ideas that are believed but cant find anything thats responisble.

No, no body hearing an external world.

Something else, yesterday while walking i was looking at the body in relation to the "outside" world. Before it felt often that there was the body experiencing the outside world, but now it seems more and more that there is no line between body and outside world.
So that in experience there is no outside world + body but more like the body is part of all experience.
It feels like im on to something here but i dont quite get it. I hope you understand what i mean.

Anyway thanks again Xain!

[Xain]

Anyway thanks again Xain!

No problem at all - In fact, it is very pleasant and refreshing to see someone who is very keen and interested in really looking into this stuff! Great work!

Its all thoughts and ideas. But sometimes there is a sense of the experiencer being somewhere behind the eyes.

This is very common.
The head region is so common in our beliefs that it houses the brain and is therefore the 'seat' of what makes us 'us'.
Also, the major sense organs are housed there.
In the sense of 'seeing', there may be a distance between the objects in the visual experience, and a location where 'seeing' is assumed to be being performed from. This might give the impression of 'something seeing located behind the eyes'.
This 'separating distance' is something to be examined later on, and isn't directly part of this inquiry.

We are specifically interested in 'what is doing the seeing'.
At this stage, is it clear that there is (what I might call) 'A visual experience', but whatever is witnessing that visual experience cannot be found, and anything that is said about it (eyes, brain, 'I', 'me', 'a person') etc is always from thoughts / beliefs and ideas etc - It's not FOUND. Is that clear for you?

Something else, yesterday while walking i was looking at the body in relation to the "outside" world. Before it felt often that there was the body experiencing the outside world, but now it seems more and more that there is no line between body and outside world.
So that in experience there is no outside world + body but more like the body is part of all experience.

Kind-of.
Don't expect anything to 'change' in this guidance, or if and when you attain a realisation.
But you are on to something.
We don't dismiss objects and as you say the body appears as an object in experience just like all the other objects do, a cup, the computer screen etc
But is the idea that 'I am this body' anything more than a belief? A thought appearing suggesting that.
That includes 'this body is responsible for experiencing the world'.
That's the essence of what we are looking in to.

Let's look into what you said about 'general manager of life'.
This exercise is looking for a controller of the body.
It's a very simple exercise you can do while sat down.

Choose one of the hands, it doesn't matter which.
Then when you've chosen one, and you feel you wish to, raise that hand into the air.

Do this as many times as you like, but each time you do it - Inquire on this:

1) Can what is making the hand / arm rise into the air (the muscles contract etc) be FOUND?
2) Can an 'I', a Person, (or the body itself??) be found making that happen?
What exactly is making that happen?
What do you FIND?

Just as a note, of course the limbs of the body are 'seen' and they are seen to be moving (as we have said, the body appears an object in experience).
Remember we are trying to find what causes such a thing to happen. What and where is the controller found?

Xain ♥

[Mikeforfree]

No problem at all - In fact, it is very pleasant and refreshing to see someone who is very keen and interested in really looking into this stuff! Great work!

Thanks. Something happened when i first readed gateless gatecrashers, tears where coming out and there where some realizations. Haha but after that the mind came in with the belief that "i" got it. But clearly it was not fully seen through. Now im just fully focused on doing this investigation.

At this stage, is it clear that there is (what I might call) 'A visual experience', but whatever is witnessing that visual experience cannot be found, and anything that is said about it (eyes, brain, 'I', 'me', 'a person') etc is always from thoughts / beliefs and ideas etc - It's not FOUND. Is that clear for you?

Yes this is clear, there is just the visual field but nobody behind it.

Don't expect anything to 'change' in this guidance, or if and when you attain a realisation.

When i discovered the LU website there where still big excpectations, like walking around in bliss being way more confident and extrovert.
Altough these expectations dropped quite a bit but there maybe still some that are in place that are in the way of seeing clear.

1) Can what is making the hand / arm rise into the air (the muscles contract etc) be FOUND?
2) Can an 'I', a Person, (or the body itself??) be found making that happen?
What exactly is making that happen?
What do you FIND?

There is reading this exercise, thoughts about raising the arm. Then the arm is raised. There is nothing before the raising of the hand and nothing thats deciding to raise the hand. On an intelectual level the body is raising the hand because the hand is part of the body, but in experience the hand is just coming up and down. No "i" or body that controls the movement.

Whats making it happen? I have no idea. There is just reading the exercise and then the hand going up and down. There is no deciding moment for when the hand is going up also.

[Xain]

But in experience the hand is just coming up and down. No "i" or body that controls the movement . . .
Whats making it happen? I have no idea.

Good.
So in experience, what is making it happen cannot be found, yes? All that is experienced is thoughts and the arm moving.
So . .. if we suggest 'I am making the arm move' is that anything other than an idea about it? A belief / thought?

There is no deciding moment for when the hand is going up also.

Good - So here a 'chooser' cannot be found - Yes? All that is experience is thoughts and the arm movement at a certain time.
So . .. if we suggest 'I am choosing that arm' is that anything other than an idea about it? A belief / thought?

We will go into 'thoughts' in more depth shortly.

Xain ♥

[Mikeforfree]

Hi Xain ,

Good.
So in experience, what is making it happen cannot be found, yes? All that is experienced is thoughts and the arm moving.
So . .. if we suggest 'I am making the arm move' is that anything other than an idea about it? A belief / thought?

Yes exactly, there was nothing found thats making the arm move.

'I am making the arm move' yes thats a belief/thought.
Or the "I am" is a label to make it understable in language for others.

Good - So here a 'chooser' cannot be found - Yes? All that is experience is thoughts and the arm movement at a certain time.
So . .. if we suggest 'I am choosing that arm' is that anything other than an idea about it? A belief / thought?

Indeed havent found anyone or anything thats making the choice. Looked at this in other activitys during the day and nobody found thats making the decision to choose to go right or left for example. But its not always easy to see. Because the toughts i am choosing to do this/that can be quite convincing. But this are also labels/thoughts that come before of during the choice.

We will go into 'thoughts' in more depth shortly.

Great!

Thanks.

[Mikeforfree]

Hi Xain ,

Good.
So in experience, what is making it happen cannot be found, yes? All that is experienced is thoughts and the arm moving.
So . .. if we suggest 'I am making the arm move' is that anything other than an idea about it? A belief / thought?

Yes exactly, there was nothing found thats making the arm move.

'I am making the arm move' yes thats a belief/thought.
Or the "I am making" is a label to make it understable in language for others.

Good - So here a 'chooser' cannot be found - Yes? All that is experience is thoughts and the arm movement at a certain time.
So . .. if we suggest 'I am choosing that arm' is that anything other than an idea about it? A belief / thought?

Indeed havent found anyone or anything thats making the choice. Looked at this in other activitys during the day and nobody found thats making the decision to choose to go right or left for example. But its not always easy to see. Because the toughts i am choosing to do this/that can be quite convincing. But this are also labels/thoughts that come before of during the choice.

We will go into 'thoughts' in more depth shortly.

Great!

Thanks.