Looking for a guide to explore the changes of life

[adam_brunt]

Hi Ingen,

I had a question come up about suffering. Can there be spontaneous action to help those that suffer without engaging an identity? When Strong emotions come out of response to very sad realities in the world I usually feel flooded with feelings that seem to guide me towards a life a service.

[Ingen]

I don't quite understand your question. What should be wrong with a life of service? If that's what you're drawn to, then by all means do that!! You'll not be able to avoid "identity-thoughts", no matter what. You don't have to believe the upcoming thoughts. Thoughts come and go. "Believing" is another thought saying "thought X is true".

You seem to think that you have to do an effort to suppress identification?

Is there a YOU that can identify with a certain role?

[adam_brunt]

You seem to think that you have to do an effort to suppress identification?

I have some obvious confusion around seeing that there is no I to identify with and then seeing that there can be identity with an I or that identification happens less or more regardless of what is expected.

What should be wrong with a life of service? If that's what you're drawn to, then by all means do that!!

It seems complex enough to fully know if what one is drawn to is authentic or just a projection of identity surfacing. Some thoughts are useful, so which ones do you believe and which ones just pass. I guess I've come to understand that identification is harmful to clear seeing.

You seem to think that you have to do an effort to suppress identification?

Does identification exist? If identification is the process that sustains the YOU, then it must be seen as false or imaginary as well to fully see through the YOU. If you in fact do not sense a separate YOU doing anything then won't the way that body participates in western society completely change? I'm stuck on this lack of YOU being combined with an individual expression of life.

In my direct experience they both happen. There is engaged individuality at times and then also a total sense of no one and no individuality at other times.

[Ingen]

You seem to confuse the "sense of you" with a you. The "sense" comprises many things. Location of the body, feelings, familiar thoughts, etc. Like a "sense of Christmas", a "sense of summer". Sometimes this sense disappears (when engaging in a ball game, in certain spiritual experiences, etc.). But when it is there, this doesn't mean that there ALSO is a separate entity "self". The sense of being Adam doesn't have to disappear for you to see that Adam is just a fairy tale figure!
LIke, when you're sitting in a train, waiting for it to move. Then the neighbour train starts moving. You get the unmistakable sense that your train is moving backwards. Does that mean that your train IS moving? Or take optical illusions. Their effects don't disappear only because you know how they work!

Can you describe in detail how you experience the self you are so afraid of identifiying with? Does it exist, or are there only thoughts, feelings and actions? It might be helpful to analyze in depth how thoughts and actions play together.

It seems complex enough to fully know if what one is drawn to is authentic

"Authentic" to whom? The concept of authenticity gets hollowed out if you see there is no one to BE authentic, only causes and conditions that lead to certain actions. Some actions feel "right" in this moment, for some reasons (which are probably too complex to be analyzed).

Instead of striving for authenticity, think about if it is possible at all to do something wrong (or inauthentic) in this moment. Is it even possible to do something differently than it happens? Have you ever made a wrong decision? And I mean in that moment, not seen in retrospect! You can always tell stories about how stories could have played out differently.

Is it even possible to make wrong decisions? Do you have control over the thoughts and impulses that come up? (And again - don't mistake the "sense of choice" with real choice. Do you have control over your preferences?

[adam_brunt]

I'm going to spend some time with this to look at my senses and sense of self more deeply.

Instead of striving for authenticity, think about if it is possible at all to do something wrong (or inauthentic) in this moment. Is it even possible to do something differently than it happens? Have you ever made a wrong decision? And I mean in that moment, not seen in retrospect! You can always tell stories about how stories could have played out differently.

Is it even possible to make wrong decisions? Do you have control over the thoughts and impulses that come up? (And again - don't mistake the "sense of choice" with real choice. Do you have control over your preferences?

[adam_brunt]

That last post mistakenly posted before I was don typing.

Instead of striving for authenticity, think about if it is possible at all to do something wrong (or inauthentic) in this moment. Is it even possible to do something differently than it happens? Have you ever made a wrong decision? And I mean in that moment, not seen in retrospect! You can always tell stories about how stories could have played out differently.

Is it even possible to make wrong decisions? Do you have control over the thoughts and impulses that come up? (And again - don't mistake the "sense of choice" with real choice. Do you have control over your preferences?

This flips so much of the learned sense of reality on its head. It is challenging to fully see this even if you are willing to accept it as fact by your own direct experience. You have to fully trust your direct experience in order for it to guide you!

I'm going to spend some time with this to look at my senses, authenticity, right and wrong, and sense of self more deeply. School has me busy, so I may take longer than expected to respond.

[Ingen]

This flips so much of the learned sense of reality on its head.

Yeah, that is true.

It is challenging to fully see this even if you are willing to accept it as fact by your own direct experience. You have to fully trust your direct experience in order for it to guide you!

Sorry if I sound like a broken record. What is this I that could be guided?

I'm going to spend some time with this to look at my senses, authenticity, right and wrong, and sense of self more deeply. School has me busy, so I may take longer than expected to respond.

That's ok. I hope I don't overlook the notification again. (If that should be the case, just post again!)
Don't hesitate to post notes even if you haven't found a "final" conclusion yet!

[adam_brunt]

Most questions about this only come up after thoughts come up that are then labeled as my thoughts. In the natural arising of action from moment to moment there is no I that habitually has been associated with thoughts. It's a habit to label and identity when really there is just spontaneous movement in life.

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[adam_brunt]

Should say identify not identity.

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[adam_brunt]

What comes up from moment to moment is fine and normal. It's part of life simply being expressed.

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[adam_brunt]

If only my anxiety could see this, there wouldn't be any unnecessary reactions to protect myself from life spontaneously arising!

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[Ingen]

Hi Adam,

it has been a while since we last talked. Nice to see you around.

How are things going? You mention your anxiety, which doesn't see things your way... Could you elaborate a bit?

Best,
Ingrid

[adam_brunt]

Yes. Thanks for picking this all up again Ingen.
The anxiety is not necessarily connected to any conscious thoughts and arises from feelings of protection that start before any reaction to them. It feels like the anxiety will keep creeping in on a deep level no matter how well I see clearly the fact that there is no I, only thoughts, feelings, and sensations that are then attributed to an I. This seeing really helps lessen the anxiety, but it is still there. In the way. Sometimes I don't feel it at all and it's such a relief. I feel like myself.


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[adam_brunt]

My anxiety also arises to eating certain foods or fond memories certain activities. Flying is difficult now. I used to like flying, but anxiety is in the way. That's what I mean by being in my way as well.

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[adam_brunt]

Fond memories was a mistype. Sorry I'm on my phone using Swype texting!

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