Seeking the end of Seeking

[Govinda]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
By the expression "that there is no inherent self" I understand that there is no seperate doer, that has control about any actions, thoughts, decison, etc.
It feels like "I" am doing, deciding, thinking, etc. but actuallly its just happening without a "inherent "self"".
It feels like I have control over thoughts but this "I" is just a ...

What are you looking for at LU?
At LU I am looking for the true nature of what I really am. I am obviously not the body mind, but there is identification with the body/mind. So I want to realize who I truly am. I already had glimples that I am not the body/mind, that the body-mind is just a movie playing by itself without an actor.
It is so painful for me to experience all the thoughts and feelings as real. It is prison, it is suffering for me. As having experienced desidentification with the body/mind, having experienced what I truly am, having experienced consciously "me-lessness" I finally want to leave this prison of the body/mind.

Realization of the true nature of being wants to happen here. It has to happen, it is destined to happen, and no time wants to be wasted anymore with distractions. The illusion wants to be unrooted at its core now as soon as possible.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect from a guided conversation not too much. Maybe I will be shown the points that keep me stuck in the illusion. Maybe illusionary thinking will be disclosed. Maybe unconscious patterns that hold on to the illusion will be made conscious.
Hopefully wrong ideas will be challanged so that it can be realized that I am this.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
At the age of 16 I have been diagnosed with multiple sklerosis. Two years later I started to get involved with hypnosis, NLP, Psychology, EFT, meditation and other practices in order to become healthy again. I visited a buddhist monastery where I lived for two weeks where I met the idea of enlightenment first and I knew I have to go there.
After that I lost this journey a litte bit out of sight for some years because I fell into computer gaming addictions, but still heard lots of spiritual audios while playing.

After that I met a teacher that worked with kundalini breathing methods, which I learned and used for a while. They freed a lot of pain, but suffering crawled in again after some months. Then I went to psychotherapy some clinics for psychological illness. After that I met a group of people who read and practiced a lot with personal development, I met regularly for some months.
I practiced meditation, affirmations, hypnosis, breathing techniques, trauma releasing exercises while that time.

In June 2016 after I had my second Eckhart Tolle phase I hit advaita and the Satsang movement. Since That I read and heard lots of footage about Advaita like from Rupert Spira, Mooji, Papaji, Samapan, Tony Parsons and his friends, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ramana Maharshi, Ramesh Balsekar and students, and many other more local teachers.

I attended lots of online Satsangs and also local Satsangs from Shanti, Muni, Andreas Müller, Samarpan, Venu.

In the beginning of the Advaita phase I mainly practiced self enquiry as it was told from Ramana but later, especially initiated by Lisa Carins, I more started to specificly feel into the body and get in touch with feelings.
Since about one year I meditate about 1-3 hours a day mosty, feeling, sensing, being.
Since a few weeks I also practice breathing expercises (holoptropic breathing and others) and body exercises to free pain which seems to release lots of pain and it feels like I get to deeper and deeper levels of pain and unconscious patterns that are stuck in the body.

I also am in a chat group of people who are on the "non dual path" and we write about our experiences and insights.

Since it seems difficult to evoke "self realization" (according to Tony parsons it is impossible) I mostly concentrate on making the ego structures conscious and dissolving it in the last time. I visit as many Satsangs as possible and registered for several retreats in 2017 Like from Lisa Cairns, Tony Parsons, Karl Renz.
My interest in reading books about non duality reduced in the last time.

It feels like I am getting more to the core of the pain and suffering. I feel vulnerable and open. A feeling of lack and seperation comes more and more to the surface which as been overlayed by many other feelings before. Today I met suffering and I totally fell into a old pain of being totally powerless but this time resistance against it broke and I completely have been soaked up by it.

Is this way of dissolving the ego structure the wrong direction?

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 11

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hello!

Welcome to LU and thank you for the excellent introduction!

Am happy to explore this with you. Let me know if you're good with that, and we can make a start.

With best wishes,
John, a guide here.

[Govinda]

Hello!

Welcome to LU and thank you for the excellent introduction!

Am happy to explore this with you. Let me know if you're good with that, and we can make a start.

With best wishes,
John, a guide here.

Thanks for your reply, s-p-a-c-e.
I would love to explore "my true nature" with is said that one should write at least one comment to the forum. I am wondering what to write about.
I just give it a try: I have been to my monday EA meeting (emotions anonymous) and I suffered pain from loosing gloves and it was a very strong feeling. Another meeting visitor told that this pain might be a ptojection of a painful situation of the past that happened to me earlier and I saw he was right.
I assume that this pain of loosing my glove was actually the pain of being abandoned by my mother, of having lost access to love, affection, confir.ation.

In spiritual terms it was the pain of seperation, of incompletion, lonelinesy, lack.

At work there always appears the fear of being dismissed as my mother dismissed me on a felt level. I already have lost some jobs, because I were to slow and made too many misstakes.
And actually it does not surprise me, because I am not really interested in what I am working, its just for money.
I have problems to concentrate and the people working there are highly indentified with their body/mind.

Lots of resistance appears at work. It might be a projection of the pain and suffering I experience. I am scared of life, of people, it seems so frightning and I feel inferior, powerless, overwhelmed by the pain life seems to evoke. I feel like a child lost without guidance in the world.

Actually there is a big desire to not be alive. Life seems too painfull, too overwhelming for me.

Thats much about my suffering now.
So the only valuable purpose in life seems to end this life by dying on a spiritual level as suizide is not a real option for me since my family clings too much on me.
There is a big desire to realize the illusion of the world and myself which seems so real, heavy and dark.

I tried many techniques but nothing worked out. Everything I try becomes compulsive and a instrument of the ego mind driven by lack and a sense of seoeration which drives me deeper into suffering and the illusion of being a seperate person.
I feel ruled by the ego mind, who seems to dictate my actions and thoughts. I cant escape it, its like I am obsessed.

Whats my problem? What do I cling to? I am highly identified with the ego mind and I dont notice it mostly. So what can I do? Every attempt to change something seems to stregthen the sense of me. I feel trapped, cant move forth nor back.

Feeling the body calms me down, that helps, but as soon as I not specificly concentrate on feelings and sensations the mind rules me again and I am in hell.
Devotion, acceptance, etc. it all is initiated and directed by the mind. I feel powerless but not enough powerless to quit resistance and searching.

Asking for guidance please...

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hello,

Thanks again for the info. Very helpful. Also, what name would you like to use? Just makes communication a little easier.

Just to say something generally about what you've shared, with respect to this forum's approach.

The focus here is on the experience of me, myself, I - which generally feels utterly real. We have a look at that and see what we can discover. Not to see 'there is no self', and adopt a new belief, but to look precisely at the experience we are calling 'me', and see if it stacks up.

With respect to the hurt and pain, I have only admiration for the work you have done thus far. It takes real and true courage to open up even an inch to certain kinds of pain. Now, at LU, its not within our remit to work with emotional issues in depth. But let me share something from my own experience which may or may not be useful on ways to approach it.

First, give yourself a break and pause trying to solve anything.
Recognise that the issue is not so much the pain but self-judgement.
The pain is hurtful enough, but the body can cope. But when the mind starts judging, we get guilt, regret, blame which just magnifies things.
So, we don't do that. We see quite precisely the role judging ourselves plays - so we press pause!
Now, this is not so easy, and it will continue a little, but you can still look to reduce judging - and here's how.
It is to start to show yourself some genuine basic kindness. Be gentle with yourself.
You have been through the mill and some, and you have great intelligence and insight. So give yourself a little attention and credit! Be kind, be gentle. Take it easy. You have made great progress, you have learned a huge amount on the journey and you have much more to learn, and share with others.

Ok. Let me know what you make of that, and we'll go from there.

With much love,
John

[Govinda]

Hi John,

thanks for your answer, you can call me Sebastian.

since I am aware of feelings, thoughts, sensations it seems obvious for me that I can't be them.
Still there is a sense of me which is attached to the body, especially to the sacrum, heart, head area. Here is where most tensions seem to be.

As I investigate the "I" further it appears to be nothing real but just an appearance made up of thought and feelings.
Since I cant choose or anticipate the next thought, sensation or change of focus it seems obvious that "I" have no control about what is happening. It seems to just happen by itself without anyone controlling it. So it seems evident, that "I" as a seperate being doing, thinking, deciding does not exist.
The problem is that this investigatiom takes place on a mind level and seems not to unroot the illusion of the sense of "me"...
I investigated this long times but it did not have a fundamental effect, so I moved to solving, tensions and seeing through unconscious patterns.

Not to solve anything seems quite difficult because if pain and the sense of lack becomes intense there arises a compulsive desire for ease.

I tried a longer time to just let things be, but there always was a slight sense of resistance or searching which kept me stuck in pain and suffering somehow.
By trying to not to solve anything I stayed in depressive moods for long times.
It seems hard for me to really let things be.

In previous times I felt lots of blame and I always wanted to punish myself for " misstakes".
But actually now judging myself seems not to play a big role for me anymore at least on a conscious level. It's more about resisting things like "I don't want this", " I dont want this unpleasent feeling/pain", "I dont want to be here". On the other side the compulsive need to get have something is there like " I need this (for my fullfillment)", "I have to have this, cant live without it".

There is fear to let go of control maybe. I never really could let go of control since this is an apparent act of control too. The sense of me is defined in some way by the illusion of control. Letting go of control would reonforce the illusion of control, because this is control too, isnt it?

Its also hard for me being gentle and smooth to myself and especially taking it
easy. Also tried it but there mostly is this felt heavyness and seriousness. But I'm still working on it, but it appears to be difficult.

Best wishes, Sebastian

[Govinda]

This strong resistance or searching maybe arises from the deep sense of lack and incompletion which is so strongly felt here. The feeling of "not being good enough" or "not being loved" and is connected with being abandoned and isolation which appears to be highly unbearable.
And there are many situations in daily life that trigger that feeling of inferiority. Many things I dont want to happen teigger the feeling of inferiority which is projected as resistance against circumstances.
But I feel like I have not fully seen through this mechanism. I will investigate this further.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Sebastian,

since I am aware of feelings, thoughts, sensations it seems obvious for me that I can't be them.

Still there is a sense of me which is attached to the body, especially to the sacrum, heart, head area. Here is where most tensions seem to be.

Good work. Sit for a few minutes, and describe objectively as if they were the feelings of a stranger, what is felt in each area that has the association 'me'/'sense of me'.

As I investigate the "I" further it appears to be nothing real but just an appearance made up of thought and feelings.
Since I cant choose or anticipate the next thought, sensation or change of focus it seems obvious that "I" have no control about what is happening. It seems to just happen by itself without anyone controlling it. So it seems evident, that "I" as a seperate being doing, thinking, deciding does not exist.

Ok, good.

The problem is that this investigatiom takes place on a mind level and seems not to unroot the illusion of the sense of "me"...

Quite. And we shall explore new territory together.

I investigated this long times but it did not have a fundamental effect, so I moved to solving, tensions and seeing through unconscious patterns.

It's all interdependent, one way or another.

Not to solve anything seems quite difficult because if pain and the sense of lack becomes intense there arises a compulsive desire for ease.

Sure. See if the approach above, to treat arising pain as that of a complete and utter stranger, softens it.

I tried a longer time to just let things be, but there always was a slight sense of resistance or searching which kept me stuck in pain and suffering somehow.

Good to notice the resistance, we'll explore that some time.

By trying to not to solve anything I stayed in depressive moods for long times.
It seems hard for me to really let things be.

Sure, it is tough. No worries, we'll explore.

In previous times I felt lots of blame and I always wanted to punish myself for " misstakes".
But actually now judging myself seems not to play a big role for me anymore at least on a conscious level.

Good to hear.

It's more about resisting things like "I don't want this", " I dont want this unpleasent feeling/pain", "I dont want to be here". On the other side the compulsive need to get have something is there like " I need this (for my fullfillment)", "I have to have this, cant live without it".

Great insight Sebastian.

There is fear to let go of control maybe. I never really could let go of control since this is an apparent act of control too. The sense of me is defined in some way by the illusion of control. Letting go of control would reonforce the illusion of control, because this is control too, isnt it?

Well, control is generally over-thunk (is that even a word?) :)
Our focus is on our remarkable ability to make up and identify with a persona/me/myself/I. We are going to be looking at HOW we do this. Like when Scooby Doo discovers the source of the monster was projections. It helps to see the nature of things with more clarity.

Its also hard for me being gentle and smooth to myself and especially taking it
easy. Also tried it but there mostly is this felt heavyness and seriousness. But I'm still working on it, but it appears to be difficult.

That's fine. A small task for you. When you have a moment, each day, find a place you won't be disturbed, settle down, and take three strong comfortable breaths in and out through the nose. On the third breath, make this a little deeper, and when you breath out, do so through the mouth and BLOW OUT ANY TENSIONS into the space.

Then sit for a moment - before going on with the day.

Share any discoveries...

With best wishes!
John

[Govinda]

Thanks for your answer again, John. Appreciate it very much :)

Good work. Sit for a few minutes, and describe objectively as if they were the feelings of a stranger, what is felt in each area that has the association 'me'/'sense of me'.

In the lower body it feels like contractions, tightness, heaviness... No wait. If the tensions connected with me were the feelings of a stranger they would be nothing more than pixels on the screen.
They are not seperate from everything else appearing, and not seperate from the screen but appear to have another form and shape then its environment. Maybe the tensions appear to be darker, heavier, realler, tighter than ease but are equally the screen. Its made out of the same substance as the feeling of ease.

Sure. See if the approach above, to treat arising pain as that of a complete and utter stranger, softens it.

I do and it seems as the difference between free space and pain ceases, its made out the same substance the same screen. The tensions are meaninglyless, there is no need to change it.

That's fine. A small task for you. When you have a moment, each day, find a place you won't be disturbed, settle down, and take three strong comfortable breaths in and out through the nose. On the third breath, make this a little deeper, and when you breath out, do so through the mouth and BLOW OUT ANY TENSIONS into the space. 

Then sit for a moment - before going on with the day.

Share any discoveries...

Its calming, but some tension remains.

Furthermore I met someone doing hypnosis and I think I will practice this for myself again, since I already have experience with it and this seems to be a very strong tool

I realized that the infantile pain of felt abandonment by my mother and the need for affection by my mother expresses itself in various situations and forms as projections in daily life as doubt, fear, lack, desperation, etc.. It all seems to have its roots there. I will make self hypnosis about that insight.

With love, Sebastian

[Govinda]

I do and it seems as the difference between free space and pain ceases, its made out the same substance the same screen. The tensions are meaninglyless, there is no need to change it.

To investigate it as if it was a strangers feeling is calming and enriching but still this seems to work more on a mind level too. It seems not so much exprienced feelingly as it is imagined.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Sebastian,

Its calming, but some tension remains.

Good. We're in learning-mode. Not trying to get rid of tension, but discover a little about how we create and add to tension by perceptions about 'tension'.

Furthermore I met someone doing hypnosis and I think I will practice this for myself again, since I already have experience with it and this seems to be a very strong tool

Could we leave the hypnosis aside for now, while we inquire together. Otherwise, it gets off track. Thank you.

I realized that the infantile pain of felt abandonment by my mother and the need for affection by my mother expresses itself in various situations and forms as projections in daily life as doubt, fear, lack, desperation, etc.. It all seems to have its roots there. I will make self hypnosis about that insight.

If you are willing - and if you don't wish to, that absolutely fine - let's explore this felt abandonment in another way.

Rather than see it with respect to your mother, explore it with respect to you.

So, just touch the notion, that this is about abandoning yourself.
Touch it gently. Just enough to entertain the possibility that there may be something valuable there to learn.
Equally, there may not be.

Great work Sebastian! Have a lovely day. I'm off to the dentists now. :)

With best wishes,
John

[Govinda]

Hi John,

Could we leave the hypnosis aside for now, while we inquire together. Otherwise, it gets off track. Thank you.

Ok, that hurts a bit, it feels like rejection. What do you want me to talk about? Why no free sharing? Why excluding?
I dont like to exclude, I would like to include, you know?

If you are willing - and if you don't wish to, that absolutely fine - let's explore this felt abandonment in another way.

Rather than see it with respect to your mother, explore it with respect to you.

So, just touch the notion, that this is about abandoning yourself.
Touch it gently. Just enough to entertain the possibility that there may be something valuable there to learn.
Equally, there may not be.

You mean abandoning myself as "This"? Abandoning myself as becoming identifiied with this body/mind instead of knowing myself as "This", one truth?

Sure. See if the approach above, to treat arising pain as that of a complete and utter stranger, softens it.

I tried that approach as there came up greater fear and desperation and as every "practice" it became compulsive and intensified tensions and the perception of lack. I also noticed that I lost contact to feelings and it soaked me into the mind.

Heartfully, Sebastian

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Sebastian,

Ok, that hurts a bit, it feels like rejection. What do you want me to talk about? Why no free sharing? Why excluding?
I dont like to exclude, I would like to include, you know?

These inquiries can easily get distracted. If you would like to pursue hypnosis, then I'd suggest you spend some time with that and come back when you'd like to focus on this.

With best wishes,
John

[Govinda]

Hi Sebastian,

Ok, that hurts a bit, it feels like rejection. What do you want me to talk about? Why no free sharing? Why excluding?
I dont like to exclude, I would like to include, you know?

These inquiries can easily get distracted. If you would like to pursue hypnosis, then I'd suggest you spend some time with that and come back when you'd like to focus on this.

With best wishes,
John

That hits a very painful point.
If I dont act as I am supposed to, I am abandoned...
Feeling of lack, inferiority, not being good enough, seperation, isolation...

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Sebastian,

That hits a very painful point.
If I dont act as I am supposed to, I am abandoned...
Feeling of lack, inferiority, not being good enough, seperation, isolation...

A process like this is no ordinary conversation in which we share whatever we wish.
It is a focussed guiding.
As a guide, I approach it a certain way, and as a client, you do to.
It is not a question of what you or I are supposed to do. We play by the rules, because the rules are there to support the inquiry.

I can see you are sensitive to suggestions, which is absolutely fine, but this inquiry is going to be full of challenges. It's why we ask: On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 11

Have a think about whether you'd like to continue. There is no problem in leaving it a while. Folk do it all the time. I've done the same myself on numerous occasions when I felt that the time was better suited to something else.

With my best wishes,
John

[Govinda]

A process like this is no ordinary conversation in which we share whatever we wish.
It is a focussed guiding.
As a guide, I approach it a certain way, and as a client, you do to.
It is not a question of what you or I are supposed to do. We play by the rules, because the rules are there to support the inquiry.

I am willing to play the rules. Maybe I didnt totally grasp the idea of LU. So I no ordinary sharing anymore, I got it now. Please challenge "me".

Still feeling as this body/mind is me. And the problem I experience with lractices to realize myself as presence (or however you may call it) is that tensions are increased, compulsiveness arises, and it mostly becomes mind directed. So practices seem to increase the sense of me.

I can see you are sensitive to suggestions, which is absolutely fine, but this inquiry is going to be full of challenges. It's why we ask: On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 11

Yes I am willing to let go of all concepts. There is fear, but I am willing to, the desire is definitely there to become free.

Have a think about whether you'd like to continue. There is no problem in leaving it a while. Folk do it all the time. I've done the same myself on numerous occasions when I felt that the time was better suited to something else.

Now is as good as any other times.