me, myself & I

[o_nil]

Good day,

This "self" that appears, is it an actual self, or is it the illusion of self ?

Nothing appearing within the thought realm is ever real. It's fiction. The thought itself is real, but its contents is not. I-thoughts and the like appear at times but there is no actual self, only an illusion of it.

Is it the IDEA of a self, with some accompanying feelings, that give you a SENSE of a self ? ..but not an actual self ?

I'd say concept instead of idea ... although I ain't so sure there's a difference. Anyway, yes, thoughts reinforced by feelings that *they* (thoughts) triggered in the first place. It's a Self-sustained loop of some kind. But all there is is the experience of it. And experience is just experience. Within it there is thoughts that convey an idea/concept of self but like I said, anything in thought is fiction. Control/planning/choice/opinion/etc are thoughts that may also trigger feelings and sensations. All of these are part of the illusion of self. Thoughts, feelings, sensations are real. The self that they portray isn't. It's a construct. I am a construct. Like everybody else.

Needed to ask someone else to give an answer here!
attention, is when thoughts are focused on something. mindfulness, is when thoughts are focused on the attention thoughts. In other words, mindfulness is thoughts looking at the thoughts that are happening.

Thanks for the explanation and sorry for the trouble!

Cheers,
Nil

[Florisness]

Hi Nil,

Your answers are nice. Do you feel that something changed?
How are expectations going for you now? And is there still the seeking going on?

Floris

[o_nil]

Good morning Floris,

Do you feel that something changed?

Again not really: experience is still going on.
The only thing that might be different is the relative disengagement I have with what arises in thought.

How are expectations going for you now?

I feel expectations has a broader range than the regular meaning that gets attached to it. For example, you set yourself a goal of studying some subject and expect in the short run to understand the subject and in the long run get a job that pays more. Fine. But expectations work also at a way smaller scale, such as, for instance, I turn the knob of a door and I expect for it to open. In both cases expectations, and in both cases it's speculation. For what I know, the door could fall off of its hinges for whatever reason. And if it's the case, I'll have a nice story going on giving some reason. More speculation.
Same goes with knowledge. Actually, they sound quite similar.
Bottom line, expectations still regularly arise but don't mean much. It's a good navigation tool, though.

And is there still the seeking going on?

I had to take some time to assess that one.
I don't want to trick myself into believing anything so I'll be honest: the habit seems to be still here and "seeking" shows up from time to time. But I find it quite pointless and almost laughable. Everything that I'll ever experience is already here and now. Nothing more, nothing less. That seeking thing is in fact sort of ridiculous (^_^;)

Have a good one!
Nil

[Florisness]

Hi Nil,

Could you please answer these questions again? Sorry!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Floris

[o_nil]

Good morning Floris,

Could you please answer these questions again? Sorry!

Sure thing! Here goes:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no self, no me, no I. Never was. That is in direct experience at least. But then again, is there any other than direct experience?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

In my experience, the illusion of self arises automatically in certain situation, mainly when I interact in society. The self is nothing but a construct that starts in thought triggered by some event. A lot of time I can't pinpoint what the trigger was. It in turn triggers a range of emotions/feelings. The whole thing is actually some sort of flow. It comes and goes. That would be a curious thing for a real self to show up and disappear.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

No special feeling, no major differences. One of the things (maybe totally unrelated, but still) is that I see people get excited for literally nothing and I just can't relate. Another thing is I'm not drawn to seeking that much anymore.
Can't think of anything else.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I can't pinpoint anything with that regard. Just a few comments from my guide made me reconsider a lot of things. Main thing being that thoughts are just that: thoughts.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

The conventional wisdom would state that "I", "I" and "I".
What I see is more something like: something happens in experience, some decision is made, some actions are made... and that's it. Just now, I've taken a sip of coffee from my mug. Didn't have to think too much about decisions or control. Just happened. Why now and not in 10 seconds? I don't know.
A point I find interesting about free will is, for example, why do I like black coffee and other people don't? Was there even a choice? I never went ahead and decided: from now on, I will enjoy coffee. So much for free will.

6) Anything to add?

Nope!

Have a good one,
Nil

[Florisness]

Hello!

Nice Nil, it seems that you are through. Someone of the admins will mail you soon with the opportunity to join a Facebook group, here are just a bunch of gaters who are able to share their experiences.
Also you would be able to access a part of the forum ('further investigation') where you could continue exploring, if you like.

It was a pleasure :)

Floris

[o_nil]

Hi Floris,

Just wanted to thank you again: it was a fun journey!

Best wishes,

Nil

[Florisness]

Thank you, and yes it was! will probably see you arriving on the fb group.

like you say:
have a good one