mzanin - let's do this

[No_One]

We use the 'I' 1000 times per day but we have no idea what it means. Let's find out, let's find out what does that stand for. Let's look at the truth and find out. Honesty and commitment to stick with this until the end is all we need

So, what does I mean for you?

[mzanin]

Hmmm that's a very broad question. I?

As simply put I for me is a word which represents a viewpoint or perspective. It stands for everything within my experience, thoughts, perceptions, feelings. There is an essence to everything "I" related, almost like everything is tainted by all past experiences. Does that make sense?

[No_One]

Sure ... that makes sense but we are looking to see what's true. So when you say 'I move my hand' what does that mean? What are the facts? Move your hand, look and see what can be seen. Who is moving the hand? How does the hand move? Is there a controller?

[mzanin]

Well the hand is moved by my will. "I" think about moving it and it moves. There is an innate assumption that by thinking or willing the hand to move, it does actually move, because it is MY hand...
The controller doesn't feel tangible however, it is weird. I can't point to it and say there it is. It's almost as if it is unknown if thought about.

[No_One]

Nice ... so what is it that you see and what is it that you assume? Really important ...

[mzanin]

Ok well, Let's take the cause and effect of say the hand moving as the example again,

I see the effect, what is happening right now. If I try and look deeply at what is making the hand move, I can't find it. It doesn't bother me that I can find it though. It's just how it has always been.

My assumptions about what is happening are completely different thought, and maybe that is why it doesn't bother me that I don't know, because it's almost as if it's subconscious. I assume it's me that is making the hand move; mentally I can picture/feel me (physical form, behavior, past experience etc.). It's me otherwise who or what else could it be that's making my hand move?

[No_One]

Right ... so there's hand moving and the assumption you do it. What about thoughts? What can be seen in thougths? Where do they come from? Where do they go? What can be seen in that action?

[mzanin]

The thoughts rise by and of their own in what feels like inside me. There is the feeling or knowledge of the thinker or creator/owner of the thought (i.e. I). But I can't point to where the thoughts come and go. It's a mystery to me.

[mzanin]

In fact let me expand on that, when thoughts subside there is still the knowledge or feeling (not a thought as such) of me or I, that is still present. But when I investigate as to who or what I is, I simply draw a blank.
It's almost as if it's a catch 22...

[mzanin]

Sorry to triple post,

but I feel this is hitting the nail on the head with the issue that I've been facing for a while.
I feel that by thinking about I or trying to find out it's source to liberate myself, I actually need to employ thought to do so? Then I feel like I mentally exhibit control by saying to myself "this is bad, stop thinking, and just be". When I try to stop thinking, even if no thoughts arise, I still remain essentially "un-trasformed", and there is still the underlying feeling of me or I. It's difficult to put into words actually...

[No_One]

Nice ... that's really good posts so keep them coming. There are thoughts that come from nowhere and there's a feeling of me but there's nothing behind it. Cool ... so based on what you see we cannot say you think the thoughts. We might assume that but we can't be sure. Where can the 'I' be seen in that? Is it the controller / the seeker / the observer? Look at that ... is there anything that would make you say that's 'you'?

(Sorry for the delay ... lunch time)

[No_One]

Based on what you see there, there's nothing to make that body / mind you. There are just processes going on with no 'you. Sure ... there is a sense of 'you' but no real 'you'. Try to work from this perspective ... try to find something that makes that you. Really try to prove that wrong. Can you find something that makes that you?

[mzanin]

Could you clarify the "Can you find something that makes that you?". Are you asking me to find the creator of I?
Is this similar to the neti neti (not this not that) approach? I'm not my personality, I'm not my thoughts etc.?

[mzanin]

You're right, I cannot without a doubt prove that the thought of I is authentic. 'I' could just be another thought. In which case who do the thoughts and feelings belong to?

[mzanin]

Aha, I kinda get what you're saying, because I'm aware of I, how can 'I' be the source of the thoughts. Right?