Think i'm ready for the change

[vinceschubert]

Ideas come and I can follow them up if so feel inclined, but there isnt any control over ideas/thoughts(or maybe some limited control -i.e i can think a specific thought image/colour, but i cant stop thought delibaretly)

Ideas come - correct.
I can follow them up - Following up may or may not happen. The minds' need for ownership fools you into thinking that it is a deliberate act - it is not. (though it may be the result of some previous intention - temporary conditioning)
There isn't any control - correct.
i.e. i can think a specific colour - bullshit! try it and watch as you do. i'll bet you have finished the thought before deciding on what colour to think.
Bharat, thoughts come, thoughts go. that is the reality. Any idea that there is an I to own them or generate them is crap. SEE this!

Hmmm...without intention nothing is possible, so the focus by self to be present could be seen as intention to be present, intention is a thought as well right ?

Yes, intention is a thought.
without intention nothing is possible - Not so! Is any accidental happening the result of intention ? Do you intend that your heart keeps beating ?
Language is tricky, and although we invent new words the language limits us to a base where a self exists.
When i say Me to an unLiberated person, it is for communication purpose and no point in a discussion about the existence of a self. When i say i to a liberated person, there is knowledge that they understand that it is just a language convenience. When i say i to you, there is question about what you take it as. When you say I there is investigation here as to what you really mean.
Don't worry about grammar or appearance here. Speak it as you mean it. Clarity is the most important.
Bharat, is there an I or Me anywhere, has there ever been ?

[Bharat]

i.e. i can think a specific colour - bullshit! try it and watch as you do. i'll bet you have finished the thought before deciding on what colour to think.
Bharat, thoughts come, thoughts go. that is the reality. Any idea that there is an I to own them or generate them is crap. SEE this!

I'm still running this through, the idea/belief that i am & i own the thoughts is still strong, there is no control , but I want to belief there is some control (who - the Self/I , which is but a thought!)

Yes, intention is a thought.
without intention nothing is possible - Not so! Is any accidental happening the result of intention ? Do you intend that your heart keeps beating ?
Bharat, is there an I or Me anywhere, has there ever been ?

Intellectually no, it seems silly, but the million and one thoughts about the self are still here and the belief seems to exist (even though I know I dont!)

Will continue to ponder this more.....

[vinceschubert]

the belief seems to exist

They Do exist!
They exist as a belief, a story.
Some stories are useful to navigate certain circumstances, but you are not identified with them.
That is the difference, you stop believing that they are you and you are them.
Once seen as a story, it ceases to be worthy of basing a decision on. You stop Believing.
The thoughts will still be there until the spring is completely unwound, but they will have less impact and occur less frequently each time they are seen for what they are, a story.

[Bharat]

They Do exist!
They exist as a belief, a story.
Some stories are useful to navigate certain circumstances, but you are not identified with them.
That is the difference, you stop believing that they are you and you are them.
Once seen as a story, it ceases to be worthy of basing a decision on. You stop Believing.
The thoughts will still be there until the spring is completely unwound, but they will have less impact and occur less frequently each time they are seen for what they are, a story.

Ok, I was under the expectation (missed this off the list of expectation of noself), was at the speed the beliefs would drop (immediately and without any intervention from me), wareness and presense of here and now is more apparent and when emotions rises due to situations, sometimes the emotion doesnt fit the situation (i.e its happening but feels unecessary) as i can evaluate the situation and make a different/more informed choice rather then a reactive choice driven by the emtions.

So if its a case of beliefs will drop slowly once they are faced headon and re-evalauted and the more freer I am to make other choices (other choices would not normally exists - if the emotions take over and i react with the same choice)

In that sense I am seeing more the stories that are in my head and as you said the beliefs/thoughts will remain until the belief is neutralised in a sense (i.e no automatic reaction).

but the sense of self remains (know I now that isnt real either) so may time some time to spring clean the mind.

[vinceschubert]

the sense of self remains

Remember it is a SENSE of self that remains. Not an actual self.
Have a look at this video, at 29 minutes into it, the researcher will show you how that sense (sensation) of self is created.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E)

[Bharat]

Thanks for the link. It's a great documentary, does open your eyes more to the self.

One thing that has stuck from the initial experience is regarding the sense of time. I KNoW that there is no such thing as time viscerally, it just doesn't exist , this I know for sure , I guess that's why I am more aware of the present moment, but thoughts do continue of the past and worrying about the future, but at least I am aware that I'm doing that too. I don't not have any control of how I will feel from day to day, yesterday was a good day, today it doesn't feel so great -more gloom and doom!!!

Is ther more to do, other than continue with seeing more beliefs crop up and realising that it doesn't apply any more........

[vinceschubert]

There is always more ! (but to do, no.)
Bharat, let's go through some questions to get a clear idea of where you are at the moment.
Be somewhat verbose in your answers.
Once we have seen that you 'see' you will be invited to join a group that discusses that 'more' in great detail, but is pointless for those who have not seen through the delusion.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that tipped you over, that triggered the 'seeing' ?

[Bharat]

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, its not possible for it to exist as it is an illusion , not a real entity that can be found anywhere expect in a thought.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

Its starts at an early age, in order to separate one's self from other people and to be able to identify one's self as an individual.
But this inself is alike a filter that is stuck between the genuine self (stripped of all attachements and belief systems) and this so called thought self.

3) How does it feel to see this? it feels freeing , liberating, feels like freedom! but need to remind one's self that I doesnt exists else the emotions takeover and I react automatically.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

It likes living life with blinkers on and only seeing a certain angle/perspective and then someone removing the blinkers and get to see the whole picture, but not just a visual/seeing level but mentally/in thoughts/feeling etc awareness of what is, is widened.
There is more awareness of the present moment, and the realisation that there can be no other moment, even though you still have thoughts of the past/future.

5) What was the last bit that tipped you over, that triggered the 'seeing' ? 2nd time this happened, was whilst reading the Ilona's thread on ""what is not Automatic".

[vinceschubert]

a filter that is stuck between the genuine self

Bharat, can you elaborate on this genuine self ?

[Bharat]

The genuine self is a term that I've read elsewhere , which basically says that the genuine self as opposed just the self is the direct experiencing of life without placing any judgements on any situations/experiences/objects/person , preferences exists but judgements are not necessary, so beliefs or attachements are not necessary either.

[vinceschubert]

The genuine self is a term that I've read elsewhere

So do you have any direct experience of this genuine self ?
Does it exist as an entity in any way, shape or form ?
Remember, second hand knowledge is not relevant here.

[Bharat]

The genuine self is a term that I've read elsewhere

So do you have any direct experience of this genuine self ?
Does it exist as an entity in any way, shape or form ?
Remember, second hand knowledge is not relevant here.

Apologies for the delay, was contemplating this further and come to a conclusion that I don't feel interested at the moment about this topic, no self, time , no time, it seems to have become boring, who,s bored, even thinking about that seems boring.

I think I need a break temporary break from this and revist it once there is more interest. Considering what's happened, I don't think I've stepped through the gate less gates fully, I have seem a glimmer of the gates or maybe got at least a foot in the door, but not fully crossed over, and at this moment I don't feel any need to push this any further.

[vinceschubert]

Ok, but think about whether this is a mind ploy to get you to stop.
You are very close and until the de-conditioning has proceeded significant amount, there is the possibility to forget this and go back to sleep.
Ask the question, 'do I use boredom to escape situations'
In my experience here, the only ones who don't succeed are the quitters.

Anyway, this thread will stay open.
i may or may not be here, but do come back.

Good feelings to you Bharat.

vince

[Bharat]

Your right, it seems that I have lost interest in a lot of areas not just the self discovery part. It's a great ploy, didn't think the self was capable of such trickery .

Currently when I have thoughts , centre of my mind/brain feels hollow, seems like there is ping pong ball sized empty space in the mind.

When I say who,s thought is this , who's thinking there is no real interest in the words, the words fel empty As if ignored by the brain.

I've lost that feeling of being present/awareness of here and now, time exists of sorts.

I may need make more of a concentrated effort of focusing, as I guess an self/I remains, rather then a sense of an I.

[vinceschubert]

I may need make more of a concentrated effort of focusing

No effort will do it. Relax into the seeing of what you just saw. Recognition is all that is required. Don't have expectations that a sudden dramatic change will be what happens (it may or may not) The most likely thing is that everything will be the same, but with the new recognition that it was the Idea of a self that things were based on and this is the cause of all suffering/negative emotions.
Then the brain conditioning will start to change.
With each time you catch yourself doing the old stuff, it will weaken and happen less often.

I guess an self/I remains, rather then a sense of an I.

No no, there was never a self there. It was always an illusion of a self. It just seemed real because of the senses - a sense of self. It feels real.
It Isn't !
Relax and see if you can find humour about the way it works.