"Looking for" direct experience

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DanielP
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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby DanielP » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:26 pm

Hi Jason,
When looking at a tree, is there any distance between you and the tree?
Only the idea of distance creates this sense. It's all within awareness.
Ok.

From your opening post :
What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
To relinquish all identifications with the notion of a separate self. Moreover, to gain a permanent shift to seeing, rather than the current mode of the seer seeing existence.
Now here’s the question : Is there anything permanent in your experience?

Here’s another way of phrasing this : There is ‘what sees’ and ‘what is seen’ (‘what is seen’ is here used in its larger sense, it means what is seen but also, smelled, tasted, felt, thought, experienced, lived etc.). Is there anything permanent in what is seen?

If nothing’s permanent, what is a ‘permanent shift’?

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

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Spacious
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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby Spacious » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:02 am

Now here’s the question : Is there anything permanent in your experience? No. The only thing that persists is awareness, but there is no certainty that persists after death.

Here’s another way of phrasing this : There is ‘what sees’ and ‘what is seen’ (‘what is seen’ is here used in its larger sense, it means what is seen but also, smelled, tasted, felt, thought, experienced, lived etc.). Is there anything permanent in what is seen? No, it is tempting to say impermanence is the only thing that is permanent, but that is a concept and it is only a belief that attempts to make the concept permanent, but we have discussed the foundation of beliefs.

If nothing’s permanent, what is a ‘permanent shift’? This was a conceptualisation of this work.

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DanielP
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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby DanielP » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:28 pm

Hi Jason,

Ok! Now that we've explored all main areas of experience, tell me:

From your direct experience of what's here now,
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

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Spacious
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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby Spacious » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:09 pm

k! Now that we've explored all main areas of experience, tell me:

From your direct experience of what's here now,
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? No. Was there ever? No.

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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby Spacious » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:15 pm

What's next? Do you have any more subtle areas we can explore?

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DanielP
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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby DanielP » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:45 pm

Hi Jason,
What's next?
That's up to you! If you've clearly seen that all there is is THIS current experience, and that it doesn't belong to any 'separate or independent entity' then you're done.

If there still is some doubts, tell me and we'll look at them.

Just ponder these and tell how they feel!

The first thing to consider :
If you are the ‘experiencer’ or ‘that which is experiencing’, then ‘what is experienced’ cannot be YOU and cannot define YOU.

Here’s an example : YOU are having or experiencing a ‘good’ or a ‘bad’ experience, then YOU as the ‘experiencer’ remain the same. No?

Second thing :
If you are the ‘experiencer’, can you EXPERIENCE the ‘experiencer’? Can you SEE ‘that which sees’? Can you FEEL the ‘feeler’? Can the eye see itself? Can you point your finger at something in your direct experience and say : Haha, this is ME?

Third thing :
In every experiment we did so far, you could not find an ‘experiencer’ separate from ‘what is experienced’? Think about the seeing experiment. No separation. Only THIS.

If there is only THIS, what is the point of reference to compare a 'good' THIS to a 'bad' THIS? A 'good' experience' to a 'bad' experience?

Can you see that the only way we can have a 'good' or a 'bad' experience, is by comparing two parts of THIS, two parts of experience. We cannot compare the whole thing simply because we cannot grasp the whole thing and there’s nobody to grasp anything in the first place. All labels (all words, concepts) are pointing to a part of THIS.

Please take your time with these, let them sink in a bit.

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby Spacious » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:51 pm

I have read these Daniel and will comment back soon, I'm taking the advice and sitting with these questions.

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DanielP
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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby DanielP » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:39 pm

No problem Jason, talk to you later!

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

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DanielP
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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby DanielP » Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:02 pm

Hi Jason,

Do you have any insights to share? Or you still need some more time to explore this?

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby Spacious » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:04 pm

Hi Daniel,

My delayed response has been the result of dealing with a major storyline that has been in the way of seeing things as they are. This has come to the surface during therapy, meaning my attention to these questions has been slow and challenging. Much of the below questions touched beliefs that were in need of interrogation and subsequent dissolution.
Just ponder these and tell how they feel!

The first thing to consider :
If you are the ‘experiencer’ or ‘that which is experiencing’, then ‘what is experienced’ cannot be YOU and cannot define YOU.


Very true, due to the aforementioned storyline, this question was very jarring. But experiences cannot define experience, because they are not experience, they are a storyline created within experience.
Here’s an example : YOU are having or experiencing a ‘good’ or a ‘bad’ experience, then YOU as the ‘experiencer’ remain the same. No?
It's true again, experience is experience, regardless of the definitions applied to those experiences. Definitions are a component of the experience, not the experience themselves.

Second thing :
If you are the ‘experiencer’, can you EXPERIENCE the ‘experiencer’? Can you SEE ‘that which sees’? Can you FEEL the ‘feeler’? Can the eye see itself? Can you point your finger at something in your direct experience and say : Haha, this is ME?

1: No, experience is experience. There is no thing, separate from experience. 2: No, seeing is regardless. 3: No, feeling is felt. There is no feeling of the feeler that feels. 4: Only in a mirror, but that is not seeing the eye, that is only a reflection of the eye, meaning it never sees itself 5: Not a single thing, the only way a single thing emerges is with division, but is experience is total.
Third thing :
In every experiment we did so far, you could not find an ‘experiencer’ separate from ‘what is experienced’? Think about the seeing experiment. No separation. Only THIS.

If there is only THIS, what is the point of reference to compare a 'good' THIS to a 'bad' THIS? A 'good' experience' to a 'bad' experience?
Belief is the foundation of those good and bad definitions, but this raises the question: "Where does belief come from?" My answer is that it comes from nothingness, the same as good and bad. This gives it no foundation, meaning, good and bad are divisions of perception of a whole and they are only there based on the arbitrary feedback loop of belief.
Can you see that the only way we can have a 'good' or a 'bad' experience, is by comparing two parts of THIS, two parts of experience. We cannot compare the whole thing simply because we cannot grasp the whole thing and there’s nobody to grasp anything in the first place. All labels (all words, concepts) are pointing to a part of THIS.
Exactly true.

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DanielP
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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby DanielP » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:07 pm

Hi Jason,

I’m quite happy you took your time with these :)
Just ponder these and tell how they feel!
The first thing to consider :
If you are the ‘experiencer’ or ‘that which is experiencing’, then ‘what is experienced’ cannot be YOU and cannot define YOU.
Very true, due to the aforementioned storyline, this question was very jarring. But experiences cannot define experience, because they are not experience, they are a storyline created within experience.
:)
Here’s an example : YOU are having or experiencing a ‘good’ or a ‘bad’ experience, then YOU as the ‘experiencer’ remain the same. No?
It's true again, experience is experience, regardless of the definitions applied to those experiences. Definitions are a component of the experience, not the experience themselves.
:)
Second thing :
If you are the ‘experiencer’, can you EXPERIENCE the ‘experiencer’?
1: No, experience is experience. There is no thing, separate from experience.
Indeed, NO THING is separate from experience.
Can you SEE ‘that which sees’?
2: No, seeing is regardless.
:)
Can you FEEL the ‘feeler’?
3: No, feeling is felt. There is no feeling of the feeler that feels.
:)
Can the eye see itself?
4: Only in a mirror, but that is not seeing the eye, that is only a reflection of the eye, meaning it never sees itself
:)
Can you point your finger at something in your direct experience and say : Haha, this is ME?
5: Not a single thing, the only way a single thing emerges is with division, but is experience is total.
:)
Third thing :
In every experiment we did so far, you could not find an ‘experiencer’ separate from ‘what is experienced’? Think about the seeing experiment. No separation. Only THIS.
If there is only THIS, what is the point of reference to compare a 'good' THIS to a 'bad' THIS? A 'good' experience' to a 'bad' experience?
Belief is the foundation of those good and bad definitions, but this raises the question: "Where does belief come from?" My answer is that it comes from nothingness, the same as good and bad. This gives it no foundation, meaning, good and bad are divisions of perception of a whole and they are only there based on the arbitrary feedback loop of belief.
That’s a good way of putting it.
Can you see that the only way we can have a 'good' or a 'bad' experience, is by comparing two parts of THIS, two parts of experience. We cannot compare the whole thing simply because we cannot grasp the whole thing and there’s nobody to grasp anything in the first place. All labels (all words, concepts) are pointing to a part of THIS.
Exactly true.
:)

OK, now what’s next?

Still have any doubt?

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

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Spacious
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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby Spacious » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:32 pm

OK, now what’s next?

Still have any doubt?
There is a doubt that more delusions persist that are unconscious and loaded into "my" behaviour, but, this again is a belief and beliefs come from nothing, meaning they are experience and have no basis.

There is also the stream of words running through awareness, this chatter that seems to become a narration of events.

There is also the belief that something is unfinished. It is the belief that the development of "my self" is a work in progress. This, again, is part of the illusion, it is the belief in a separate self that has some form behind the eyes.

Does this qualify as doubt? Or just something that requires conscious practice to eventually penetrate through?

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DanielP
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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby DanielP » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:30 pm

Hi Jason,
There is a doubt that more delusions persist that are unconscious and loaded into "my" behaviour, but, this again is a belief and beliefs come from nothing, meaning they are experience and have no basis.
From the point of view of the 'experiencer', how do you experience doubt?
There is also the stream of words running through awareness, this chatter that seems to become a narration of events.
Yes. What about it? If somehow you nourish the idea that one day thoughts will stop, good luck!
Mind thinks. This is what it does.
There is also the belief that something is unfinished. It is the belief that the development of "my self" is a work in progress. This, again, is part of the illusion, it is the belief in a separate self that has some form behind the eyes.
From the point of view of the 'experiencer', how do you experience a belief?
From the point of view of the 'experiencer', how do you experience the form behind the eyes?
Does this qualify as doubt? Or just something that requires conscious practice to eventually penetrate through?
Yes it does. Seeing what we are or what we are not, is beyond doubt. And no, it doesn't need a practice. Let me give you an example, when you realized that Santa Claus was unreal, did you have to practice anything to keep that realization?

Also, even if seeing is beyond doubt, this doesn't mean that you will never experience doubt again. Doubt is a perfectly appropriate behaviour in some circumstances.
Say you live in a warm country like Costa Rica, and someone is trying to sell you a winter coat. You should definitely be able to doubt his words.

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

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Spacious
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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby Spacious » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:46 pm

From the point of view of the 'experiencer', how do you experience doubt? It rises within awareness.

There is also the stream of words running through awareness, this chatter that seems to become a narration of events.
Yes. What about it? If somehow you nourish the idea that one day thoughts will stop, good luck!
Mind thinks. This is what it does.
Having heard others talk about this narration ceasing, my assumption was that it was part of this process, but that is false as it has nothing to do with seeing through the illusion of self.

There is also the belief that something is unfinished. It is the belief that the development of "my self" is a work in progress. This, again, is part of the illusion, it is the belief in a separate self that has some form behind the eyes.
From the point of view of the 'experiencer', how do you experience a belief? It is a thought and like all thoughts it is from nothingness.

From the point of view of the 'experiencer', how do you experience the form behind the eyes? It appears within awareness, it has no location.

Does this qualify as doubt? Or just something that requires conscious practice to eventually penetrate through?
Yes it does. Seeing what we are or what we are not, is beyond doubt. And no, it doesn't need a practice. Let me give you an example, when you realized that Santa Claus was unreal, did you have to practice anything to keep that realization?
No.

Also, even if seeing is beyond doubt, this doesn't mean that you will never experience doubt again. Doubt is a perfectly appropriate behaviour in some circumstances.
Say you live in a warm country like Costa Rica, and someone is trying to sell you a winter coat. You should definitely be able to doubt his words.


Since we have spoken, there has been a sustained realization of having no self. Thank you for all your help.

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DanielP
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Re: "Looking for" direct experience

Postby DanielP » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:28 pm

Hi Jason,
From the point of view of the 'experiencer', how do you experience doubt? It rises within awareness.
ok.
Having heard others talk about this narration ceasing, my assumption was that it was part of this process, but that is false as it has nothing to do with seeing through the illusion of self.
Indeed. Now let me try to clarify a few things. The present experience is what it is. That's it and that's all. If there is thoughts, there is thoughts. If there is no thoughts, there is no thoughts.

That being said, there is no standard, no condition, no prerequisite as to how this 'seeing through' translate into ones experience.
From the point of view of the 'experiencer', how do you experience a belief? It is a thought and like all thoughts it is from nothingness.
ok.
From the point of view of the 'experiencer', how do you experience the form behind the eyes? It appears within awareness, it has no location.
ok.
...When you realized that Santa Claus was unreal, did you have to practice anything to keep that realization? No.
ok.
Since we have spoken, there has been a sustained realization of having no self. Thank you for all your help.
Glad to see things are clearer now.

For the sake of completion here is a final set of questions :

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of Separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free Will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal


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