the journey

[kvotski]

Hi Scot,

You know what we do. If not please review it again.

See if there is anything else i can do for you.

Btw, responding after three days is not appreciated.

Thanks.

[Scot1234]

im sorry i went away for a couple of nights .

[Scot1234]

so I guess thats it then ...gooodbye .

Scot

[Scot1234]

Hello,
I feel frustrated and unsatisfied with this abrupt ending.
I feel as if I'm left in limbo.
Its quite clear for me that I have not achieved any spiritual advancement from this process.
I'm confused about where I am at in relation to this process.
Scot

[kvotski]

Sorry Scot,

From your last repsonse, i assumed you have all you need.

Going back, what we do here is to walk you through until you find there is no you.

Obviously there is still a you who feels unsatisfied.

What would make this you satisfied?

What are you looking for?

We do not hand out enlightenment which was one of your expectations.

Is there something else that you are not identifying?

[Scot1234]

"I' ultimately know there is no 'fixed unchanging me'.
But 'I' also experience 'me' 'now'... absolute and relative.
"I' never expected an enlightenment certificate but 'I' would appreciate your feedback on whether or not 'I' have seen through this illusion.
"My' experience is there is no fixed 'me'. "My' existence is in continuous flux, in terms of my mind states I've already experienced a number of different lives.
Mind creates my world. I've lived in different worlds and I can clearly see that was due to mind states.
My mind state alters the experience of the world around me, places, people which in turn feeds into my mind states. I can go up, down, sideways. So no 'fixed me'.
Looking at the physical, with the most obvious experience of 'I' being the aging process which of course changes my experience of others and their experience of me and therefor my experience of the world and of myself.
Control. Who's in control??? Conditionality. My experiences are controlled by my conditions my conditions control my experiences. Positive mind states lead to positive and happy 'me'. Negative conditions, mind states lead to a negative 'me'. When 'I'm' caught out in the rain without a coat 'I' become wet cold and miserable. When 'I' make it home and sit in front of the fire and have a hot shower I'm positive, happy and cheerful. Ultimately it is the same 'me'. If 'I' was writing an autobiography of the two experiences. The reader would not guess it was the same person.
So, no fixed permanent me so no 'me' in control. Control is the conditions.
"My' decisions also arise out of 'my' conditions therefore conditions decide and control my experience.

This 'understanding' highlights the interconnected nature of all existence and experience and knowing this fills me with compassion and bloody dread.

[Scot1234]

By body is burning in turmoil.
"l've' always really struggled with expressing 'my' experience.
"I' remember at school the debilitating tension in my wrists, the emotional tension trying to communicate, trying to be understood.
Its here right now.

[kvotski]

Hello Scot,

I see it took a lot to get that out. There is not nor there can be an unexplored area no matter how uncomfortable.

Now let us look at them bit by bit.

You well summarized your issue in the first two sentences,

"I' ultimately know there is no 'fixed unchanging me'.
But 'I' also experience 'me' 'now'... absolute and relative

I may be reaching but I have heard this teaching in some of my Buddhism readings, the concept of real and conventional or relative "me".

We do not want concepts even if it comes from a great teacher like Buddha. We only do direct experience. You may want to review what we call direct experience written up in the resources section at Home.

So look, in your direct experience, is there a "fixed" and a "relative" you?

Are there two parts of you?

Or is it the same thought masquerading?

What is the nature of this shifting "you"?

the changing feelings of happiness or mind states any different from the shifting "you"?

If they are, how in direct experience?

This looking is the key. Share what you find, all that goes through your mind when you exclude all thoughts and just experience what this "you" feels like.

Do not exclude any option including a complete absence of a "you".

Then we will look at if you are a body.

Best wishes.

[kvotski]

Now let us look at some other things you talk about.

Mind creates my world. I've lived in different worlds and I can clearly see that was due to mind states.
My mind state alters the experience of the world around me, places, people which in turn feeds into my mind states. I can go up, down, sideways. So no 'fixed me'.

As we have previously discussed ( can do that again if you like) mind is thought.

So the worlds, people and places feeding into the mind are also thoughts. These are going up and down.

Why does there have to be a vacillating you to go along?

Why cant they be happening just as your breath, heartbeat, the rain and the moon?

What makes them special cases?

Looking at the physical, with the most obvious experience of 'I' being the aging process which of course changes my experience of others and their experience of me and therefor my experience of the world and of myself

.

Do the thoughts or the mind age or just the body?

So the ageing body changes thoughts or the mind.

Are you inferring that you are the mind?

Or are you the body?

Control. Who's in control??? Conditionality. My experiences are controlled by my conditions my conditions control my experiences. Positive mind states lead to positive and happy 'me'. Negative conditions, mind states lead to a negative 'me'. When 'I'm' caught out in the rain without a coat 'I' become wet cold and miserable. When 'I' make it home and sit in front of the fire and have a hot shower I'm positive, happy and cheerful. Ultimately it is the same 'me'. If 'I' was writing an autobiography of the two experiences. The reader would not guess it was the same person.
So, no fixed permanent me so no 'me' in control. Control is the conditions.
"My' decisions also arise out of 'my' conditions therefore conditions decide and control my experience.

This 'understanding' highlights the interconnected nature of all existence and experience and knowing this fills me with compassion and bloody dread.

Everything makes perfect sense except there is a "you" that inserts itself to claim the body and mind.

Can you rewrite this paragraph but take out all references to you and yours?
Do they still make perfect sense or not?
Is there any need of an owner in these experiences?

What is the nature of this compassion, for whom?

And dread for whom?

I know this is a lot, so take your time on each and send me responses as you firm your views on each. Please do not ignore any.

Thanks.

[Scot1234]

Any sensation 'I' experience, 'I' experience as 'me'.
"I' hear 'me' when 'I' swear and shout.
"I' see 'me' in a mirror.
On occasions 'I' smell 'me', not normally very pleasant!

'I'm' experiencing my old aches and pains in my back. I could say that they are just 'pains'. "You' are not experiencing them. They are not out there in the world. Only 'I' am experiencing them.
Thought is as untangable as a sensation.

Sensation or a thought or emotion can give 'me' an experience of a 'fixed me'.
The previous description of positive and negative mind states is a fixed description of transitory sensation.
Its 'me' explaining 'me' at fixed points in time. And not suggesting that any of those fixed points in time are actually permanent versions of me.

'me' only exists in the moment. In the next moment is a 'different me'. Any 'me' is from the sensations of the moment.


Thanks for reengaging.
On a different note, it is likely that there may be days between my responses due to my lifestyle.

[kvotski]

Hi Scott,

Please try to answer ALL my questions. They are pointers which shouldnt be glossed over. It is in the finer details, lies the truth not generalisations.

Any sensation 'I' experience, 'I' experience as 'me'.
"I' hear 'me' when 'I' swear and shout.
"I' see 'me' in a mirror.
On occasions 'I' smell 'me', not normally very pleasant!

Is there a you hearing, experiencing or seeing?

Look carefully. Is there a doer? Can you stop experiencing?

Is that you in the mirror?

Is the relection, you or an image?

Have you ever really seen your face as others have?

'I'm' experiencing my old aches and pains in my back. I could say that they are just 'pains'. "You' are not experiencing them. They are not out there in the world. Only 'I' am experiencing them.
Thought is as untangable as a sensation.

Not you nor anyone else is experiencing the pain. There is pain which causes the brain to assign a label and ownership.

Try touching your hands or brushing your hair with your fingers with eyes closed. Now look.
Is there a hand, is there hair?
What in direct experience makes them yours?

Sensation or a thought or emotion can give 'me' an experience of a 'fixed me'.
The previous description of positive and negative mind states is a fixed description of transitory sensation.
Its 'me' explaining 'me' at fixed points in time. And not suggesting that any of those fixed points in time are actually permanent versions of me.

'me' only exists in the moment. In the next moment is a 'different me'. Any 'me' is from the sensations of the moment.

At this rate you are concluding that there are millions of you changing with each thought or sensation.

What is the difference between all these changing "me's" and passing thoughts?

Yes, there is no permanent "me".

But why is there a need for the shifting me's?

[Scot1234]

contenplating . Will respond asap.
Scot

[kvotski]

Ok.

Please make sure you do the experiments of touching hands and hair as i suggested.

In a peaceful place perhps during meditation.

Repeat a few times.

[Scot1234]

Hello,
I am doing my best to communicate my experience to you. It feels disjointed.
I feel I do understand but don't know how to convey this to you. Everything seems to be taken so literally.

Is there a you hearing, experiencing or seeing?

There's just what the mind interprets.

Look carefully. Is there a doer?

There's just experience unfolding.

Can you stop experiencing?

All the time my brain is alive I will experience.

Is that you in the mirror?Is the relection, you or an image?

Its an image of what I've learned to recognise as me.

Have you ever really seen your face as others have?

No

Not you nor anyone else is experiencing the pain. There is pain which causes the brain to assign a label and ownership.

I couldn't have said it better.

Try touching your hands or brushing your hair with your fingers with eyes closed. Now look.
Is there a hand, is there hair?
What in direct experience makes them yours?

They are mine because when my mind directs them to touch my hair and my mind receives the sensation of touching hair it takes ownership of the sensation and the command.


'me' only exists in the moment. In the next moment is a 'different me'. Any 'me' is from the sensations of the moment.

At this rate you are concluding that there are millions of you changing with each thought or sensation.

What is the difference between all these changing "me's" and passing thoughts?

This experience in this moment is my experience.
This experience in this moment is now my experience.
Does it jumps through time, or slide forward???

A continuous flow of experience of 'me'.

Yes, there is no permanent "me".

[kvotski]

Hi Scott,

We need to explore two of these a little more.

You didnt quite answered my question about the hair nd hand experiment.

What does it feel like to touch your hand and brush your fingers through your hair?

Report on Just the snesations!

What makes these sensations skin or hair?

Is there a differnec beteeen touching the hand and touching a soft cushion ?

Is there a differnece between touching hair or touching some strings?

Keeping your eyes closed may help.

Now ask what makes these sensations yours?

The second area which i need more from you is

What is the difference between all these changing me's and thoughts?

If they are not thoughts what are they?

If they are then why not say there are many thoughts instead of many " me's"?

Details and focus until the head hurts, so to speak, my friend.