Wanted: direct experience

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

but another part of me, the part that witnesses, is just aware of the emotion and marches on calmly

Ah, this is what i wanted to hear. The feeling. "Calm and determined" isn't concept. It's a body thing. (even though thoughts are involved with the recognition of it.)

When I think about it, I generally picture myself just suddenly becoming aware on a new level.

i have a technique that i (used to) employ with the recognizing of a story happening, where i would append "..which may or may not be accurate."

A belief is a thought

Yes. It is a special kind of thought though. It is one that has been given permission to be acted on without consideration. There is no need to actually have the thought for the action to happen. It is as if the thought has become part of the body (organism).

Now consider this; There is sensation and there is thought. (from the perspective of the organism) Nothing else.
Can you think of anything else ?

Response, or action/reaction.

..are these not concepts that point to more sensation and thought ? The response being either more thought or emotion.
If you are referring to physical action, movement, then we are into the concept of time, memory. Something we should explore - but i think later.

The “actual” whole world holds more than we can perceive and respond to, however. At least I believe it does.

Yes, absolutely. i have a story to explain experiencing here, that everything that life offers, emerges from a great mystery and returns there after experiencing. It is in no way complete or even accurate, but it allows great freedom in not knowing (anything).

love

vince
[/size]

[moomon]

Good Morning, Vince,

Ah, this is what i wanted to hear. The feeling. "Calm and determined" isn't concept. It's a body thing. (even though thoughts are involved with the recognition of it.)

Yes! That's true! I feel the impatience in my body, and I feel it when the calm quells it. It's as if I can <occasionally> control whether or not I acknowledge the thoughts, but controlling the residual energy they create takes some doing. Gosh, all these years I thought this stuff was all made up in my head. So nice to be able to relate with someone who understands.

i have a technique that i (used to) employ with the recognizing of a story happening, where i would append "..which may or may not be accurate.

Well then, isn't that just you playing with the story you were temporarily getting lost in? I do that too sometimes, to eradicate nightmares. Once I realize I'm having one, I throw in really silly stuff, or come up with ways to rescue myself from whatever monster is after me. It's great when it works! [/quote]

A belief is a thought

Yes. It is a special kind of thought though. It is one that has been given permission to be acted on without consideration. There is no need to actually have the thought for the action to happen. It is as if the thought has become part of the body (organism).

I don't agree with any part of this. Beliefs are always subject to contradiction. They are little more than strong-held hypotheses. Others may not, and usually don't, share beliefs and have their own belief system. We tolerate others religious beliefs because no one can prove that any belief is less accurate, and ALL beliefs are given great consideration in regard to how they are acted upon. The only exceptions I can think of here would be more factual beliefs such as: we "believe" our body is what we are. We believe the sky is blue due to light refraction.We believe currency is the source of all value in society, ect. Perhaps this whole thing is another language issue--I can see a plethora of avenues one could take on this one word!

are these not concepts that point to more sensation and thought ? The response being either more thought or emotion. If you are referring to physical action, movement, then we are into the concept of time, memory. Something we should explore - but i think later.

Yes, you are right. And I would definitely like to discuss time with you at some point--it has been the focus of my meditations all month.

Yes, absolutely. i have a story to explain experiencing here, that everything that life offers, emerges from a great mystery and returns there after experiencing. It is in no way complete or even accurate, but it allows great freedom in not knowing (anything).

Some much could be inferred by your story; that experiences are somehow tangible things that can manifest and be directed in time or space, that the great mystery is like a huge vault that stores up all experience. I think this gives too much credence to experiences, you know? It suggests that every experience is given for a special purpose which to me, takes away the freedom of not knowing and makes me wonder why "I" was given that experience.

I'm sorry I sound so very contrary today!

Have a great day,

Moomon

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

Well then, isn't that just you playing with the story you were temporarily getting lost in?

Yes, playing with story, but not lost in it. The appendage (it may or may not be true) is the acknowledgement that there is awareness that it is story.

I don't agree with any part of this. Beliefs are always subject to contradiction. They are little more than strong-held hypotheses.

If you are aware of a belief (what the concept belief points to) then it can exist as a belief.
If you are aware that a belief is a belief, then inherently there is a question whether or not it is actual.
A hypothesis is always known to be temporary. That is it will change with new evidence. A belief by it's nature is not changeable. The moment it changes it is destroyed. (probably to be replaced by another belief)
The point i make though, it that beliefs are acted on without consideration.

I can see a plethora of avenues one could take on this one word!

Yes, but it is the consequence of holding a belief that i would like to examine. (not to have an intellectual discourse about it)
Beliefs are useful, but can have maladaptive consequences.
To behave AS IF something is true, whilst simultaneously acknowledging that it is a useful story, circumvents those consequences.
This brings us back to the mystery that life is. Nothing is known. Anything is possible. Everything is new. Everything is now. What is, is THIS. Wonderfull. Grok this and there is nothing else to be said. Nothing to add. There is nothing else. No words can describe it. Mind cannot encompass it.
You are here, because you are looking for something. You will find it when you stop looking for it.
A key phrase in my awakening was when i was told that the mosquito bite of seeking cannot heal while it is being scratched.
After 43 years of seeking, i was gobsmacked. Fuck YES. This it IT !
i went for a walk and the footpath rose up to meet the foot and the tree whispered sweet nothings to an ear that reached out to invite communion. The flowers weren't beautiful, they were intimate. Beauty was touchable.

And I would definitely like to discuss time with you

Obviously the past is conceptual, supported by memory. The future is fantasy. Is NOW a time ?

inferred by your story; that experiences are somehow tangible things that can manifest and be directed in time or space, that the great mystery is like a huge vault that stores up all experience.

No, no, no. It is a poor analogy. Just a useful one.
Is experience anything more than a memory of experiencing ?
Is experiencing a concept pointing to THIS ?
Answer me this; Except in language, is an experiencer necessary to experience the experienced ? ..or is there only experiencing ? (don't reason and answer. LOOK in experiencing ?)

I'm sorry I sound so very contrary today!

Ha. Please don't apologize. When i talk to those awakened, i behave as if there is no ego to work around. Politeness may be appropriate with those still asleep, but it us unnecessary here. Respect (compassion) is appropriate.

love

vince

[moomon]

Well then, isn't that just you playing with the story you were temporarily getting lost in?

Yes, playing with story, but not lost in it. The appendage (it may or may not be true) is the acknowledgement that there is awareness that it is story.[/quote]

Ahh, I understand your meaning now. Very good!

A hypothesis is always known to be temporary. That is it will change with new evidence. A belief by it's nature is not changeable. The moment it changes it is destroyed. (probably to be replaced by another belief)

Okay, I see what you mean. From your view, a belief is like a chemical. Once exposed to other elements, it becomes something else. And yes, I agree, changes to a belief occur because of a new belief.

The point i make though, it that beliefs are acted on without consideration.

Okay.

I can see a plethora of avenues one could take on this one word!

Yes, but it is the consequence of holding a belief that i would like to examine. (not to have an intellectual discourse about it)

Good. Let's move on!

You are here, because you are looking for something. You will find it when you stop looking for it.

I get it but I don't....Will I see it if I just stop looking? I mean, I didn't even realize there was something to be looking AT until I starting looking FOR. How do I know I won't just miss the boat all together if I stop looking? Isn't not looking the same as giving up?

A key phrase in my awakening was when i was told that the mosquito bite of seeking cannot heal while it is being scratched. After 43 years of seeking, i was gobsmacked. Fuck YES. This it IT !

I remember, and I love hearing every one else's awakening stories, but I don't seem to be getting beyond this is it. Not, this is IT, just---oh, okay. This is it--and that realization/belief hasn't led to any further realizations or experiences. You know what I mean?

And I would definitely like to discuss time with you

Obviously the past is conceptual, supported by memory. The future is fantasy. Is NOW a time ?

Now is all there is; there really isn't time. Now is a conceptual thing I think; now represents the center point from which we measure the past and present.

inferred by your story; that experiences are somehow tangible things that can manifest and be directed in time or space, that the great mystery is like a huge vault that stores up all experience.

No, no, no. It is a poor analogy. Just a useful one.

I was over-analyzing I think, but, I can see how your analogy might be a good one for describing the whole of human life. Like a wave, birth and life rush forward (all experience), then recede back (the end of all experience) to the greater body of the ocean; always part of the greater body of water.

Is experience anything more than a memory of experiencing ?

Nope.

Is experiencing a concept pointing to THIS ?

Experiencing is interpreted in concepts; I don't know if it points to THIS.

Answer me this; Except in language, is an experiencer necessary to experience the experienced ? ..or is there only experiencing ? (don't reason and answer. LOOK in experiencing ?)

Holy cow! I worked this out in my head (as instructed not to) and just started crying and laughing. Not sure why. There has to be some "thing" capable of perceiving to receive the experience, but--If "I" am the experiencer, in that I am the thing that interprets/judges experience, and I am NOT, then "I" am not necessary for experiencing to happen. My body will experience. Experience will still happen.

So....damn. That means "I" am not necessary for awakening to happen, am I? Geesh. "I" just believe I am. I want to awaken, but "I" can never do that, because "I" am not. Tears again. What do I do now? I'm very confused by this. Now I'm laughing. I think you broke me! What the heck is happening?

I'm sorry I sound so very contrary today!

Ha. Please don't apologize. When i talk to those awakened, i behave as if there is no ego to work around. Politeness may be appropriate with those still asleep, but it us unnecessary here. Respect (compassion) is appropriate.

Rules, good! I can work with this. You will always have my respect.

love

Moomon[/size][/quote]

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

Will I see it if I just stop looking?

Hmm, ok, we are approaching a portal here.
How can you DO 'stop looking' ? That implies that there is control over looking or not looking.
At best, the conditions necessary for an intention to stop looking might happen.

How do I know I won't just miss the boat all together if I stop looking?

You don't..

Isn't not looking the same as giving up?

No. Quite the opposite.
Looking (seeking) is always future oriented.
When this happens (waking up) it will be NOW. Not in some fantasy future.
Accepting THIS. Welcoming what life offers with an active invitation. Is this giving up ?
Is there any room for wanting something not yet arrived, in this ?
THIS is actual. Not some fantasy about possibilities.
If there is an aspect of THIS, that is thoughts saying that it shouldn't be (such and such), or that it should be (such and such), then it also is THIS.
Even if you get lost in those thoughts, it is THIS. However the consequences of that version of THIS doesn't bode well for equanimity. ..but it is still THIS.
If the thoughts are seen to be happening, and humor erupts at the crazy persistence of conditioning. then...

okay. This is it--and that realization/belief hasn't led to any further realizations or experiences. You know what I mean?

Yes. It didn't 'hit' you like it did me. Perhaps if i had heard it years earlier, it may not have impacted me either. (who knows)
i guess what we are doing here is hunting for the necessary conditions to bring you out of the dream.

Experiencing is interpreted in concepts; I don't know if it points to THIS.

Aha. (he thinks "she doesn't appreciate the magnitude of what she has said here.")
Absolutely. These concepts arrive so quickly that for practical purposes, it (concepts) is everything. Our whole world, everything and everybody is concept. It IS our experiencing of our concepts which is our interpretation of our experiencing, that is the totality of.., of us.
It has no absolute credibility, no meaning, no purpose, yet it is everything. THIS.

Now is a conceptual thing I think; now represents the center point from which we measure the past and present.

This is pretty good too. i'm not sure what you mean by "measure", but it is definitely a center point from which we create past, present and future

What the heck is happening?

Waking up is happening.

Now I'm laughing. I think you broke me!

The delusion broke. We found one of the necessary conditions for that to happen. Does anything exist besides experiencing ? (the verb - not the noun)

love love

vince

[moomon]

Morning, Vince.

Will I see it if I just stop looking?

Hmm, ok, we are approaching a portal here.How can you DO 'stop looking' ? That implies that there is control over looking or not looking. At best, the conditions necessary for an intention to stop looking might happen.

.

Regardless of the logic here, I don't think "I" will ever stop looking, in spite of the fact that "I" knows, intellectually, that it will never succeed.

How do I know I won't just miss the boat all together if I stop looking?

You don't..

I remember Wu Wei wrote something to the effect of, seeking is like the old man that looks for his glasses even though they are right on his nose and without them he wouldn't be able to find what he thought he had lost. This seems quite an apt response in this conversation!

Isn't not looking the same as giving up?

No. Quite the opposite. Looking (seeking) is always future oriented. When this happens (waking up) it will be NOW. Not in some fantasy future. Accepting THIS. Welcoming what life offers with an active invitation. Is this giving up ?

No, but is not the same as seeing.

Is there any room for wanting something not yet arrived, in this ?

Sure. Plenty of room.

i guess what we are doing here is hunting for the necessary conditions to bring you out of the dream.

Experiencing is interpreted in concepts; I don't know if it points to THIS.

Aha. (he thinks "she doesn't appreciate the magnitude of what she has said here.")
Absolutely. These concepts arrive so quickly that for practical purposes, it (concepts) is everything. Our whole world, everything and everybody is concept. It IS our experiencing of our concepts which is our interpretation of our experiencing, that is the totality of.., of us. It has no absolute credibility, no meaning, no purpose, yet it is everything. THIS.

Now is a conceptual thing I think; now represents the center point from which we measure the past and present.

This is pretty good too. i'm not sure what you mean by "measure", but it is definitely a center point from which we create past, present and future

I mean we get out bearings, so to speak by creating elements of time. Past happens before Present, Future happens after present, and present is Now. Perhaps a better word might have been " marker"; Now is the center position or marker in the time continuum.

What the heck is happening?

Waking up is happening.

That was such a strange, bad feeling! Very unsettling..Seconds later it was over and I just got on with my day as usual. Hmmf.

The delusion broke. We found one of the necessary conditions for that to happen. Does anything exist besides experiencing ? (the verb - not the noun)

I don't think so.

Have a great day,

Moomon

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

I don't think "I" will ever stop looking, in spite of the fact that "I" knows, intellectually, that it will never succeed.

Hmm, let's take this to a different level. There is looking. Looking can imply seeking. Searching for something. That's a goal oriented thing.
Then there is looking, that is discernment. Being aware. This kind of looking has no destination. It's not looking for something. It's looking at whatever arises. There is an element of discovery about this.
It is a knowing that by being aware of the distortion that is induced by preconceived conclusions, that that which was previously unseen, will be revealed.
Now a paradox is entertained. This is that as the knowing that whatever is experienced, is our 'personal' production. A conditioned perception of apparent other, and world. So the discovery is a deeper knowing of ourselves. Which is a deeper knowing of everything and everybody else. Oneness. (Oh, that wasn't expressed so well. ..but dig into it and it will become apparent)

This seems quite an apt response in this conversation!

Yes, very apt. All seekers are looking for what is already present. (and can't see it for looking)

Is there any room for wanting something not yet arrived, in this ?

Sure. Plenty of room.

Then you are looking past what you seek. It is closer than your gaze.

Past happens before Present, Future happens after present, and present is Now.

None of this is actual. It is all conceptual. A memory of the past is a thought happening NOW. The arrangement of past -> present -> future, is experienced only as thought. Can you find anything actual about it ?

That was such a strange, bad feeling! Very unsettling..

Was it fear ?

love

vince

[moomon]

Good morning, Vince,

I don't think "I" will ever stop looking, in spite of the fact that "I" knows, intellectually, that it will never succeed.

Hmm, let's take this to a different level. There is looking. Looking can imply seeking. Searching for something. That's a goal oriented thing. Then there is looking, that is discernment. Being aware. This kind of looking has no destination. It's not looking for something. It's looking at whatever arises. There is an element of discovery about this. It is a knowing that by being aware of the distortion that is induced by preconceived conclusions, that that which was previously unseen, will be revealed.

This is very helpful, and gives me a more positive direction in which to move, so to speak. Thank you! I will concentrate on looking, rather than seeking.

Now a paradox is entertained. This is that as the knowing that whatever is experienced, is our 'personal' production. A conditioned perception of apparent other, and world. So the discovery is a deeper knowing of ourselves. Which is a deeper knowing of everything and everybody else. Oneness. (Oh, that wasn't expressed so well. ..but dig into it and it will become apparent)

Not too hard to understand. I will give it some thought and see what I can learn from it--more looking. Y

Is there any room for wanting something not yet arrived, in this ?

Sure. Plenty of room.

Then you are looking past what you seek. It is closer than your gaze.

You lost me a bit. My thought was that there is always something more to want.

Past happens before Present, Future happens after present, and present is Now.

None of this is actual. It is all conceptual. A memory of the past is a thought happening NOW. The arrangement of past -> present -> future, is experienced only as thought. Can you find anything actual about it ?

No; I understand that none of this is actual. I believe this was said in the context of explaining how present is "measured" in the context of time-our understanding of the concept of time. I do have other questions about time, however, when we get to it....

That was such a strange, bad feeling! Very unsettling..

Was it fear ?

Afterward (and when else could I have judgements!) I felt like the tears were mine, but the laughter came through me from somewhere else. It wasn't mine; I was barely experiencing it, only feeling the air moving through my lungs, and hearing the sound of laughter coming out of my body. It was as if I wasn't there for those few moments; laughter was just happening to this body. I would describe it more like invasive than scary, but I will say I did not like not having any control over what was happening in that moment. Ha ha! Wasn't that a silly thing to say? Look at me, already "looking". What a good teacher you are! I didn't like it, but I can't wait for it to happen again so I can intellectualize the crap out of it. Woops, I guess "I'm" back....*grin*

About the concept of time:

I have read often that psychic abilities can come from certain stages of enlightenment. How can this be, if time is only a concept? If the future is just an idea, how can someone have premonitions? Are these just more false concepts?

How can we understand aging, if not in terms of time, which doesn't exist? If there is only NOW, why do we age at all?

How can an "I" react to something that has already happened if there is only NOW?


I am so grateful for your guidance--

Moomon[/quote][/quote]

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

My thought was that there is always something more to want.

Is this still the case ?

I believe this was said in the context of explaining how present is "measured" in the context of time-our understanding of the concept of time.

Oh, right. i got a bit lost. Yes, agree.

I do have other questions about time, however, when we get to it....

Ok. Let's go. What are those questions ?

Ha ha! Wasn't that a silly thing to say? Look at me, already "looking". What a good teacher you are! I didn't like it, but I can't wait for it to happen again so I can intellectualize the crap out of it. Woops, I guess "I'm" back....*grin*

You're back, but changed. (it seems to me)

I have read often that psychic abilities can come from certain stages of enlightenment. How can this be, if time is only a concept? If the future is just an idea, how can someone have premonitions? Are these just more false concepts?

i suspect that these readings are just pop zen bullshit. All i can really say is that i haven't had any psychic experiences. ..although serendipity is a word (thought) that is much more common now. i put this down to not having my head so far up my own arse (ass) as i used to.

How can we understand aging, if not in terms of time,

Good question. We use the very useful concept of time to understand it. (understand = satisfying thoughts) i have to say that even science (biology) still has a lot of question about aging.

If there is only NOW,

NOW is still a concept, pointing to something inexpressible.

why do we age at all?

Do you experience aging ? ..or is it a comparison between a memory and a concept of how you are now ?

How can an "I" react to something that has already happened if there is only NOW?

The reaction happens now. It is a response to a memory, that happens now. Tricky stuff this. Everything that you are aware of happening is already happened. The awareness is a memory of it. The memory is also finished as we respond to it.
Have a look at this video; https://www.facebook.com/Nassim.Haramei ... =2&theater
In the end we might just have to accept that we can't understand the way it actually happens. ..but we'll give it a good go.

love

vince

[moomon]

Hi Vince,

My thought was that there is always something more to want.

Is this still the case ?

Sure. The world is still full of pretty, desirable things. I imagine it always will be.

I have read often that psychic abilities can come from certain stages of enlightenment. How can this be, if time is only a concept? If the future is just an idea, how can someone have premonitions? Are these just more false concepts?

i suspect that these readings are just pop zen bullshit. All i can really say is that i haven't had any psychic experiences. ..although serendipity is a word (thought) that is much more common now. i put this down to not having my head so far up my own arse (ass) as i used to.

Well, they say it's different for everyone, but it certainly offers up contradiction to the concept of being able to see the future, if we can only react to what's already happened, you know? If everything we do is based on a response to that which has already happened, and the future is always just imagined, then there really isn't any way someone could predict anything...I think!

How can we understand aging, if not in terms of time,

Good question. We use the very useful concept of time to understand it. (understand = satisfying thoughts) i have to say that even science (biology) still has a lot of question about aging.

Okay. I guess that's one I'll just have to mull over on my own.

quote="vinceschubert]why do we age at all? Do you experience aging ? ..or is it a comparison between a memory and a concept of how you are now ?

Exactly! You can't experience aging, through a comparison between a memory (past) and now, if now is all there is, right? It's difficult to navigate any of these questions without the concept of time; and if time is not, then aging and even thoughts about aging, are impossible to negotiate.Very confusing!

How can an "I" react to something that has already happened if there is only NOW?

The reaction happens now. It is a response to a memory, that happens now. Tricky stuff this. Everything that you are aware of happening is already happened. The awareness is a memory of it. The memory is also finished as we respond to it.

Sigh

Have a look at this video; https://www.facebook.com/Nassim.Haramei ... =2&theater In the end we might just have to accept that we can't understand the way it actually happens. ..but we'll give it a good go.

Yeah, again, I think perhaps we aren't necessarily wired to know it all...

Love,

Moomon

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

Sure. The world is still full of pretty, desirable things. I imagine it always will be.

Ok then, let's examine the actuality of "want".
The Buddhists say that suffering starts with desire (my paraphrasing)
Do those "pretty, desirable things" change how you see yourself ?

Well, they say it's different for everyone, but it certainly offers up contradiction to the concept of being able to see the future, if we can only react to what's already happened, you know? If everything we do is based on a response to that which has already happened, and the future is always just imagined, then there really isn't any way someone could predict anything...I think!

This is good logic. If we bring it to an experiential perspective, then is it more than entertaining thoughts.
It is if we are invested in a future outcome. (it always 'gets me', when in American movies, someone promises that things will be ok, when clearly they aren't)

I guess that's one I'll just have to mull over on my own.

Do you expect that a satisfying answer will appear ?

and if time is not, then aging and even thoughts about aging, are impossible to negotiate.Very confusing!

Moo, thoughts have a great way of sucking you in. A quick glance at this topic should be enough to relegate it to the mystery basket. They are fine if it is light entertainment that you get from the mind boggle, but to insist on satisfaction from understanding, is a recipe for stress and dis-ease.

Yeah, again, I think perhaps we aren't necessarily wired to know it all...

Absolutely. If we accept that we know nothing, and that everything emerges from mystery, then we are primed for discovery. For wonder. ..and it doesn't get much better than that.

love

vince

[moomon]

Morning, Vince,

Do those "pretty, desirable things" change how you see yourself ?

No, they are just things.

This is good logic. If we bring it to an experiential perspective, then is it more than entertaining thoughts. It is if we are invested in a future outcome. (it always 'gets me', when in American movies, someone promises that things will be ok, when clearly they aren't)

Yes, we are known for trying to make people feel good, in spite of evidence to the contrary. Perhaps we just have a greater understanding that things will be what they will be, and we will adjust, making it all okay in the end. In terms of psychics, I've had more than one tell me that things will not be okay for me, so, it's not a consistent assumption across the board.I just don't understand, given the non-dual philosophy of time, how they can know anything about future.

I guess that's one I'll just have to mull over on my own.

Do you expect that a satisfying answer will appear ?

I don't expect any answer will appear, satisfying or otherwise.

and if time is not, then aging and even thoughts about aging, are impossible to negotiate.Very confusing!

Yeah, again, I think perhaps we aren't necessarily wired to know it all...

Absolutely. If we accept that we know nothing, and that everything emerges from mystery, then we are primed for discovery. For wonder. ..and it doesn't get much better than that.

That's what I hear...


Moomon

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

Do those "pretty, desirable things" change how you see yourself ?

No, they are just things.

Ok, good. So you don't identify as 'happier' because you posses them. (although there might be pleasure with their utility - or beauty)

how they can know anything about future.

i wouldn't be so presumptuous as to say that they can't. (or that they can) After all, the mystery is mysterious.

Moo, there is only one component missing to satisfy my belief that you clearly see through the illusion that there is an actual Self running the show.
Would you answer these questions to see if we can highlight that;
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

love

vince

[moomon]

Hi Vince,

Ok, good. So you don't identify as 'happier' because you posses them. (although there might be pleasure with their utility - or beauty)

Oh, goodness no. Sorry, I didn't realize I had confused you there. Stuff does not bring happiness for more than 30 seconds, then you just want different stuff, and there's always more stuff out there to want next.

Moo, there is only one component missing to satisfy my belief that you clearly see through the illusion that there is an actual Self running the show.
Would you answer these questions to see if we can highlight that;
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no separate entity and there never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is a function of the mind, which identifies the body as itself and develops a sense of separateness, differentiating the false self from everything else that IS.It is part of human development and starts early in life, with reinforcement from other split minds.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels normal, but frustrating that so few other people can see it. There is no difference in seeing this from before we began speaking or from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There was nothing; I was already looking. However, I was also "seeking", and this week you have shown me the value in looking instead of seeking, which serves no purpose. Thank you for that!

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

After three months together, this seems rather tedious, doesn't it? There is no decision, intention, free will, choice, or control, really. Brain controls mind and mind is directed by the void, which is in charge of all of these things. Our control is limited to reacting afterward. The "I" takes credit for all of it, ignoring all the evidence that there is no choice because it does not exist. Having said that, "I" must take responsibility for everything the body it identifies with does--it isn't actually responsible for anything; its actions are limited to its level of consciousness, but it still must take responsibility within society. An example...Okay...

Seven years ago "I" woke up in the morning and decided I had to go back to college. I have no idea where this idea came from or why, but the drive was incredibly strong. So, I left my home and husband and tore through two Master's degrees in as many years before returning home. While I I have no idea why I felt such a strong need to do this, I take full responsibility for my actions and full credit for my success.

6) Anything to add?

It doesn't seem there is much to say these days, about anything! If I think of something relevant, I will let you know.

Love,


Moomon

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

Stuff does not bring happiness for more than 30 seconds, then you just want different stuff, and there's always more stuff out there to want next.

Have you ever experienced the recognition of this as you were about to buy something that attracted you, and decided not to follow through with the purchase ?

I take full responsibility for my actions and full credit for my success.

..and can you see that both the responsibility and credit are stories ?

After three months together, this seems rather tedious, doesn't it?

It's not tedious for me. i enjoy puzzles, and boy are you a puzzle.
You SEE everything so clearly, except that you SEE.
Because you are getting bored (tedium) i will ask other guides for assistance.

love

vince