me, myself & I

[o_nil]

'Morning Floris,

Are you waiting for a realization and hope that will fix the issues? I don't hope you do, because even when the implications sink in some more, the problems will still be there.

No, I don't hope that realizing "it" will fix my issues. However, I do hope I'll be okay with them being just as they are. And from that perspective I hope I'll be able to more easily move on.
But "hope" is something that's in the future: some state/situation/goal/etc... "I" want to reach but "I"'m not there yet. And there'll probably be nothing more (and nothing less) then than now.
To be honest, I felt kind of stupid a few hours after submitting my previous post. I just want to be able to live in the now. Funny thing of it all, how is it possible NOT to live in the present moment?!
Anyway, what I got in direct experience: sensation of stupidity; reason given by thought "whining about stuff".

Yes thoughts are always manipulating, but is there any fooler and fooled?

Speaking of thoughts being manipulative, yesterday I began to wonder how full of it they were and started to doubt even the some of the most trusted ones such as "white wall", "table" and so on...
Back to you question: if there is a fool-er and there is a fool, then both of them are thoughts themselves. The whole is just fooling. And I like in particular thoughts that go something like "You [myself] are such an idiot, chasing a carrot" knowingly that that is a thought insulting another thought... and another thought might reply to that... and so on... I see that and I still feel some somewhat loose identification.

is there any reason to belief that this looking and inquiring doesn't happen completely uncontrolled on it's own?

How about reasons, do things happen because of reasons?

I think these two questions go together.
The only reason I can think of that "I" hold a belief that nothing can't just happen without some either internal or external control is from a thought saying that there has to be an explanation to everything. People in modern societies are raised in an environment where everything needs a reason. It's a habit, I suppose. And reason implies control. No reason, no control. The conditioned mind really doesn't like that. So here we are with lots of scientific formulae to explain external events, and shrinks to explain internal events...

Time for me to go to work... with a (fake?) smile :-)
Cheers,
Nil

[Florisness]

Hello Nil,

I just want to be able to live in the now. Funny thing of it all, how is it possible NOT to live in the present moment?!

Whenever you think that, you're lying. You then want a world in which everything is peaceful or whatever, in any way, it should be different that what we have right now.

Speaking of thoughts being manipulative, yesterday I began to wonder how full of it they were and started to doubt even the some of the most trusted ones such as "white wall", "table" and so on...
Back to you question: if there is a fool-er and there is a fool, then both of them are thoughts themselves. The whole is just fooling. And I like in particular thoughts that go something like "You [myself] are such an idiot, chasing a carrot" knowingly that that is a thought insulting another thought... and another thought might reply to that... and so on... I see that and I still feel some somewhat loose identification.

Is there a belief that there is something that responds to the situation? Like something that takes in sense data and analyses it?

The only reason I can think of that "I" hold a belief that nothing can't just happen without some either internal or external control is from a thought saying that there has to be an explanation to everything. People in modern societies are raised in an environment where everything needs a reason. It's a habit, I suppose. And reason implies control. No reason, no control. The conditioned mind really doesn't like that. So here we are with lots of scientific formulae to explain external events, and shrinks to explain internal events...

Yes the human race is in a compulsive game of denial. We deny that we don't have and can't have any clue about what's going on. Because how could we, this is just pure magic without any reason for it

Have a good day,
Floris

[o_nil]

Hi Floris,

How's it going?

I just want to be able to live in the now. Funny thing of it all, how is it possible NOT to live in the present moment?!

Whenever you think that, you're lying. You then want a world in which everything is peaceful or whatever, in any way, it should be different that what we have right now.

I must admit I don't see how you got to that conclusion... I see in what I said expectation, hope, desire, goal, etc... but lying? Oh, forgot that one: offense! Not much though, don't even feel anger...
Anyway, did you mean I'm lying to myself? Or maybe to you? Hum... I'll ponder on it.
Oh rereading my previous post, I think I got what you mean. Or maybe not. I could I know?!

Is there a belief that there is something that responds to the situation? Like something that takes in sense data and analyses it?

Well, I don't think there is a belief here; there is actually a response in the form of a thought. Now, what is creating that thought, I do not know. I certainly did not create it. It would be insane to create a thought that I dislike... although that's a judgment that stem from yet another thought.

Yes the human race is in a compulsive game of denial. We deny that we don't have and can't have any clue about what's going on. Because how could we, this is just pure magic without any reason for it

It doesn't seem like we deny it on purpose. But if there's no control then it can't be on purpose.

Let me ask you this: is there really an end to tail-chasing? Or is it another expectation/hope/blah blah?
I feel kinda lost... But I'll go with it.

Thanks,
Nil

[Florisness]

Hi Nil,

I must admit I don't see how you got to that conclusion... I see in what I said expectation, hope, desire, goal, etc... but lying? Oh, forgot that one: offense! Not much though, don't even feel anger...
Anyway, did you mean I'm lying to myself? Or maybe to you? Hum... I'll ponder on it.
Oh rereading my previous post, I think I got what you mean. Or maybe not. I could I know?!

Woops, sorry no there was no offense intended. What I mean is "I want to live in the now" is a statement that may seem it makes sense, but it really doesn't. Because "I want to live in the now" is thought of a ideal world. What is not good enough about this present moment (or now)? Living in the now is about accepting it in whatever form it appears.

It doesn't seem like we deny it on purpose. But if there's no control then it can't be on purpose.

Yes true, intention, purpose, all made up. So we can't say it is actually denying, since then it seems like there is an intention behind it, but it's just happening.

Let me ask you this: is there really an end to tail-chasing? Or is it another expectation/hope/blah blah?
I feel kinda lost... But I'll go with it.

Would be nice huh? Yes just move on until you don't, it'll happen as soon as you get that there is nothing to get, nowhere to go. At least, that's what I think (not there yet myself)

Floris

[o_nil]

Hey Floris,

What I mean is "I want to live in the now" is a statement that may seem it makes sense, but it really doesn't. Because "I want to live in the now" is thought of a ideal world. What is not good enough about this present moment (or now)? Living in the now is about accepting it in whatever form it appears.

I think I see what you mean... the keyword here was "want". If I want anything then I am rejecting what is now.

Yes true, intention, purpose, all made up. So we can't say it is actually denying, since then it seems like there is an intention behind it, but it's just happening.

While reading this, I found another word that I'm using way too much: "seem". If anything seems anything to me, then I'm making an interpretation about something, which is fine. I just need to see that I'm making a story.

Let me ask you this: is there really an end to tail-chasing? Or is it another expectation/hope/blah blah?
I feel kinda lost... But I'll go with it.

Would be nice huh? Yes just move on until you don't, it'll happen as soon as you get that there is nothing to get, nowhere to go. At least, that's what I think (not there yet myself)

Would certainly be nice... although there is nothing wrong with tail-chasing after all either. But what is becoming clearer is that thoughts cannot put an end to it. Even when told so, I'd think "I guess so." but if I'm honest with myself, I don't actually believe it. Maybe all we can do is acknowledge that fact and let it be. And even that's beyond our control... Amazing.

Yesterday I was observing my thoughts and I had an interesting moment. Here's the monologue:
"I'm gonna go drink some water."
"Oh, I'm planning on doing something, but will I actually do it?"
I went to the kitchen and poured some water in a glass.
"Well yeah, see? I now got a glass of water as planned."
"Sure, what says you planned anything?"
"A thought/memory."
"And...?"
"How can I be sure I had actually planned anything? A thought isn't the actual thing/action!"
"..."

Cheers.
Nil

[Florisness]

Hello Nil,

Would certainly be nice... although there is nothing wrong with tail-chasing after all either. But what is becoming clearer is that thoughts cannot put an end to it. Even when told so, I'd think "I guess so." but if I'm honest with myself, I don't actually believe it. Maybe all we can do is acknowledge that fact and let it be. And even that's beyond our control... Amazing.

Yes, thinking cannot outsmart thinking.

It seems to one of our guides that you haven't dropped being Nil at all, but that you have gained a great deal of skill in appreciation of thought, and how it plays out; and also grasped well the notion that 'Nil' is made-up without actually experiencing the implications of that. If, whilst you were sleeping in the night, unbeknownst to you, identification as 'Nil' just dropped silently away, when you woke next morning, and went about your business, what would tell you that something significant had occurred?

Floris

[o_nil]

Good morning!

It seems to one of our guides that you haven't dropped being Nil at all, but that you have gained a great deal of skill in appreciation of thought, and how it plays out; and also grasped well the notion that 'Nil' is made-up without actually experiencing the implications of that.

I am no authority on the subject, but I would agree with the above...
I'm trying to ease the thinking, though. Whenever I catch myself analyzing things, I let go, disengage and try to see what's left in direct experience.

If, whilst you were sleeping in the night, unbeknownst to you, identification as 'Nil' just dropped silently away, when you woke next morning, and went about your business, what would tell you that something significant had occurred?

Bells and whistles? A post-it on my door? Just joking :-)
Seriously though, I'm not sure. There would need to be some kind of noticing, but noticing without a notice-er and a notice-ee, I guess. Now, what exactly would be different, I have no way to tell, although I bet I can come up with some preconceived ideas of how it should be like. But that wouldn't be the point...
Bottom line, I don't know!

Thanks Floris.
And thanks also to the other guide for pitching in.
Nil

[Florisness]

Hi Nil,

Yes, nice reply.

I'm trying to ease the thinking, though. Whenever I catch myself analyzing things, I let go, disengage and try to see what's left in direct experience.

Do you see that everything that is believed to be done (or tried) is just thought product?

Here is an exercise about control, it might be helpful:
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Keep at it:)
Floris

[o_nil]

Hello Floris,

Let met try this exercise for a little longer and I'll report back.

Thanks!
Nil

[o_nil]

Hi Floris,

Did the palm up palm down thing and, while I fear it isn't much, here's what I got.

How is the movement controlled?

Without relying on thoughts, I don't know.

Does a thought control it?

Probably not. Thought says it does the controlling, but movement may occur without any thoughts, unconsciously.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

That's a sticky one. I can't pinpoint the exact moment the decision is made. I can perceive the thought taking credit for taking the decision, but that's about it.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

That, I can answer: no! Besides the aforementioned thoughts, I can't find anything that choose the moment to flip the palm...

Still no bells and whistles... :-D
Cheers,
Nil

[Florisness]

Hi Nil,

That's a sticky one. I can't pinpoint the exact moment the decision is made. I can perceive the thought taking credit for taking the decision, but that's about it.

you have an assumption here which you would do good questioning, I trust you can find out which that is on your own, and report back. (ain't a guides job easy?)

Probably not. Thought says it does the controlling, but movement may occur without any thoughts, unconsciously.

So wouldn't it be fair to say that a thought doesn't control or choose anything?

Still no bells and whistles... :-D

Ha yes, and you better forget about them too, as I highly doubt they will show up for you as you are already way too close to have a big realization.

Floris

[o_nil]

Hello there!

That's a sticky one. I can't pinpoint the exact moment the decision is made. I can perceive the thought taking credit for taking the decision, but that's about it.

you have an assumption here which you would do good questioning, I trust you can find out which that is on your own, and report back.

I've been trying to find out what that assumption could be but I'm not quite sure. I'm thinking : is a decision actually made? By that I mean, actions take place, then a thought shows up saying that a decision was made. How could this be? When things happen in direct experience, they happen in real time. But I can't see anything actually making a decision. Only the aftermath, so to speak.
As for taking credit for actions, the thoughts do exist, but that's actually another story.

(ain't a guides job easy?)

Yeah you have it good! But hey, every job has to have its perks ;-)

Still no bells and whistles... :-D

Ha yes, and you better forget about them too, as I highly doubt they will show up for you as you are already way too close to have a big realization.

Yes, I'm with ya. But don't bring up words like "big realization", my mind/ego/whatever might enjoy that too much!

I'd like to share (yet again) something that happens from time to time and happened again yesterday. I'm wondering if it's related with the no-self thing.
So I was having a conversation with a friend and for a brief moment, while I was talking, I was observing the scene as if I was only witnessing it, like a spectator. Same scene as day to day conversations happen but I wasn't doing the talking, I wasn't doing the hearing and I wasn't doing the seeing. It was kind of weird hearing a voice that I knew was mine saying stuff (incidentally a lot of BS) and it felt like being a external presence snooping around. And definitely no I, right until a thought shows up and says "hey that's weird, what the heck am I doing?" and... I is back.
Anyway, just wanted to know if that's related or not.

That's all I got for now!
Cheers,
Nil

[Florisness]

Hello,

Yes, I'm with ya. But don't bring up words like "big realization", my mind/ego/whatever might enjoy that too much!

Well I meant that you probably won't have that, so better forget about it haha

I've been trying to find out what that assumption could be but I'm not quite sure. I'm thinking : is a decision actually made? By that I mean, actions take place, then a thought shows up saying that a decision was made. How could this be? When things happen in direct experience, they happen in real time. But I can't see anything actually making a decision. Only the aftermath, so to speak.
As for taking credit for actions, the thoughts do exist, but that's actually another story.

yes spot on.

I'd like to share (yet again) something that happens from time to time and happened again yesterday. I'm wondering if it's related with the no-self thing.
So I was having a conversation with a friend and for a brief moment, while I was talking, I was observing the scene as if I was only witnessing it, like a spectator. Same scene as day to day conversations happen but I wasn't doing the talking, I wasn't doing the hearing and I wasn't doing the seeing. It was kind of weird hearing a voice that I knew was mine saying stuff (incidentally a lot of BS) and it felt like being a external presence snooping around. And definitely no I, right until a thought shows up and says "hey that's weird, what the heck am I doing?" and... I is back.
Anyway, just wanted to know if that's related or not.

did any real I get back?
And no it's not really related to seeing there is no self.

If you would explain this no-self thing to a friend, what would you tell him?

Floris

[o_nil]

Hey Floris,

Sorry for the late reply...

And no it's not really related to seeing there is no self.

Hum... In that case, I guess I still have some residual assumptions/expectations...

did any real I get back?

I don't know if it's real or not, but I is still here, feeling like I'm walking in pointless circles.

If you would explain this no-self thing to a friend, what would you tell him?

I would have no idea where to begin. I don't even "get it" myself apparently!

... back to square one I guess...

[Florisness]

Hi Nil,

Hum... In that case, I guess I still have some residual assumptions/expectations...

Yes, you are already sitting in the middle of this no-self thing (as far as that makes sense), so "you" are already there.

I don't know if it's real or not, but I is still here, feeling like I'm walking in pointless circles.

Okay, could you elaborate? What does that mean 'I is still here'? Are you talking about a sense of self? There is a sense of self here too, but we don't have to get rid of that. The sense of self is exactly that: a SENSE of self. But it's by no means a real separate self, is it?

What does need to go in order for there not to be a you/self?

As it appears to me that you want to realize no self, that makes me think that you have identification with the seeker.
Is there an entity searching to see this no-self thing, or do we just find a bunch of thoughts accompanied with feelings, that happen without any choice? The seeker being an activity, rather than an entity?

Floris