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[mark_tywharton]

PS don't think :)

[helio]

You keep making this presupposition that there is a YOU. A TRUE self? UNIVERSAL self? that can transcend life? space? time? THERE IS NO SEPARATE THING!!! In the interpretation "nobody knows the experience" the same thing can be true of life, LOOK! The pointer is NOBODY - there is no YOU. LOOK! The answer to this is not in a philosophy book, a quote, this discourse... The answer to this is in where YOU look for YOU and find nothing.
LOOK!

"You did not address my point... "the energy that you call life separates from the body and this separation cause the human to "die," however, since energy can not be destroyed it must continue being part of the universe some how... consequently, we are all one; the cosmos... whether we are in a human body or not... The True Self transcends LIFE, because it continues after LIFE... The True Self transcends time and space... it is the Alpha and the Omega... It has always been and it will always be! The Universal Self"

I think you are getting confused again by terms, so let's simplify them, and instead of True Self (since you seem to have a problem with this term) let's call it "the energy that keeps the body alive."

Now, lets go step by step and see if you can follow:

1) Would you agree that when one dies, this energy is separated from the body and this separation causes death?
2) Would you agree that this energy can not be destroyed?
3) Would you agree that since it can not be destroyed it goes on after life?
4) Would you agree that since this energy continues after life, this is called transcending life?
5) Would you agree that time and space are concepts created by man?
6) Would you agree that there is no past, present, future, begging or end, in the universe?
7) Would you agree that if energy just is, and does not subscribe to these concepts, then it transcends these concepts?
8) The universal Self, which you seem so insistent in dismissing, is the energy in the universe that gives life, but it is more than life since it exists even when there is no "organic body" to manifest this life... life is just one aspect of this energy.
9) This energy is what maintains the atoms together... and these are contained in everything... this energy that keeps you alive is the collective self... the universal self... is the energy in the universe

[helio]

THERE IS NO SEPARATE THING!!!

You are right. I never said that there is a separate self... there is only one!

The pointer is NOBODY - there is no YOU. LOOK! The answer to this is in where YOU look for YOU and find nothing. LOOK!

"To look" is a verb, which means action, and this action must be done by "someone." How do you look if there is nobody looking... how could you run if there is nobody running?

[helio]

They can be held in a different context but the only thing that should have vanished is the I that thinks it is in charge of all these variables... And vanish may be the wrong word, it is realised, in the same way that the mechanism of an optical illusion if uncovered - the brain still sees the illusion, it just isn't fooled by it again.

And since the brain is not fooled by it any longer, a whole world of possibilities opens up... hence changing the course of life.

This is a permanent shift in seeing and if there is a YOU there doing the seeing, owning this bull shit enlightenment and cosmic oneness that you keep speaking about, then it hasn't happened yet. And we can keep talking like this, it's mildly amusing. But LOOK!

How can I look if there is no-one that can look? Look at what, by the way?

[mark_tywharton]

"To look" is a verb, which means action, and this action must be done by "someone." How do you look if there is nobody looking... how could you run if there is nobody running?

Raining is a verb...

WHO is doing that?

[helio]

Wow... you know, I really take the time to think about your argument, and I question my ideas, and then I realize that you argument is not linear and the premises not accurate nor logical...

Is that really "YOUR" philosophical take on it? Or "A" philosophical take on it?
Can you see the statement is nonsensical? If the Universe is a monotheistic God, then surely IT is everything?

Yes it is, and it is unfathomable.

So who is it who likes to think? Notice that life branches. If arms could speak and were taught separation, could they find it fathomable? Fingers? Hair? Nerve endings? All of these apparently individual? Notice how human beings personify things? Herbie? Aw!

Mark, would you agree that it would be narrow minded and ignorant for the hand to say... "there is NO-HAND?"
Or... "there is "NO-PHYSICAL-BODY"?
Would you agree that the hand is part of the body, but not a separate part?
Would you agree that the hand is one with the body?
Would you agree that all of the parts make up the body?

If the hand were you, and the body the universe, does it makes sense to say that there is "no-hand?" We are God... we are everything... there is no separation... we are all one; the universe... the True Self... or perhaps you think there is no-universe?

[helio]

PS don't think :)

what is there when you don't think? everything... so, what are you? everything...

[helio]

Raining is a verb...WHO is doing that?

Any little kids knows that... God of course... hahahaha
Actually, condensation causes that... and what causes condensation? the transfer of heat...
And what causes the transfer of heat? energy
And what is energy? everything
And what is everything? God
And what is God? The true Self...

[mark_tywharton]

"You did not address my point... "the energy that you call life separates from the body and this separation cause the human to "die," however, since energy can not be destroyed it must continue being part of the universe some how... consequently, we are all one; the cosmos... whether we are in a human body or not... The True Self transcends LIFE, because it continues after LIFE... The True Self transcends time and space... it is the Alpha and the Omega... It has always been and it will always be! The Universal Self"

It has nothing to do with energy. Human beings are bio-genetic mechanisms that simply break, then they die.

Everything else that you said may or may not be true and that isn't what this conversation is about. LU isn't about some sort of esoteric mysticism, if you want that join a cult. This is about what is verifiable in experience. Can you get with the program and stop side stepping the real issue?

I think you are getting confused again by terms, so let's simplify them, and instead of True Self (since you seem to have a problem with this term) let's call it "the energy that keeps the body alive."

Now, lets go step by step and see if you can follow:

1) Would you agree that when one dies, this energy is separated from the body and this separation causes death?

It depends on the cause of death. It is not like a computer that gets unplugged and dies. It is more like a computer that breaks and yet the energy is still there. The energy that sustains life is everywhere sustaining life. It doesn't sustain life in things which are broken.

2) Would you agree that this energy can not be destroyed?

Given the small minded world view of human beings (100 year life span as compared to billions of years for universe) then inevitably that is how it is going to be perceived. Ultimately, who knows?

3) Would you agree that since it can not be destroyed it goes on after life?

After your life ceases? Yes there will be energy.

4) Would you agree that since this energy continues after life, this is called transcending life?

No. Life just continues.

5) Would you agree that time and space are concepts created by man?

Time is a language created by man. Language is a tool. Space? the 3D universe is a concept created by man. The universe is not 3D at all, it is multidimensional.

6) Would you agree that there is no past, present, future, begging or end, in the universe?

There is no physical past, present or future. If the universe has a beginning or an end then it ceases to be a universe by definition.

7) Would you agree that if energy just is, and does not subscribe to these concepts, then it transcends these concepts?

The concepts are clearly limited to scheduling trains and making sure things are made accurately within tight tolerances. For example, shoes. Ordering shoes online is made possible by dimension and time.

8) The universal Self, which you seem so insistent in dismissing, is the energy in the universe that gives life, but it is more than life since it exists even when there is no "organic body" to manifest this life... life is just one aspect of this energy.

There you go again. Can't you see that you make an unfathomable leap from a group of concepts which you are saying don't exist, yet use them as a foundation to posit the existence of something else equally as ridiculous.

How many human beings have you met in your life time?

Have you EVER had a direct experience of a TRUE SELF? or a UNIVERSAL SELF?

9) This energy is what maintains the atoms together... and these are contained in everything... this energy that keeps you alive is the collective self... the universal self... is the energy in the universe

How do you get to SELF.

It makes sense that energy manifests life.

By your reckoning, everything in the universe has a SELF.

You clearly have CHARACTERISTICS muddled up with and collapsed into the notion of SELF.

This computer has CHARACTERISTICS that identify it. It has energy, it even appears to THINK.

But it doesn't give it a SELF.

What makes YOU more special than this computer?

Like the rest of the universe, you are constructed of the same atoms right?

This is oneness right?

So what makes you so special?

The universal self or true self is a projection of your own sense of SELF!

A cat doesn't look to the universe for guidance, it just operates from true nature as part of nature.

Why can't you do it?

[mark_tywharton]

Raining is a verb...WHO is doing that?

Any little kids knows that... God of course... hahahaha

They have a direct experience of the existence of God?

Actually, condensation causes that... and what causes condensation? the transfer of heat...
And what causes the transfer of heat? energy
And what is energy? everything

You got it man!

And what is everything? God
And what is God? The true Self...

And you have a direct experience of the existence of God?

I recommend that you come back to mysticism and mythology AFTER you get this.

Next pointer.

There is no separate you.

[helio]

There is no separate you.

Never said there was. I kept telling you that there is only one... The "TRUE SELF," "The UNIVERSAL SELF," THE TRUE NATURE"

[helio]

It has nothing to do with energy. Human beings are bio-genetic mechanisms that simply break, then they die.

This has got to be the funniest and most idiotic thing you have said so far... "it has nothing to do with energy???"
What do you think life is? Pure energy... energy is your true self... and it is in everything.

Everything else that you said may or may not be true and that isn't what this conversation is about. LU isn't about some sort of esoteric mysticism, if you want that join a cult. This is about what is verifiable in experience. Can you get with the program and stop side stepping the real issue?

I am talking science... hahahaha... not esoteric mysticism... these concepts have been verified... unless you call science a cult? hahaha... you are funny...

If we asked people, what sounded more like esoteric mysticism, would you agree that the idea of "NO-SELF" sounds more like a "esoteric mysticism" cult... than scientific concepts on energy and life... would you not agree?

It depends on the cause of death. It is not like a computer that gets unplugged and dies. It is more like a computer that breaks and yet the energy is still there. The energy that sustains life is everywhere sustaining life. It doesn't sustain life in things which are broken.

hahahaha... scientifically, it does not matter the cause of death... death is the separation of this energy from the body... it is very much like unplugging a computer.

Have you ever heard how we keep people artificially alive by plugging them to devices... and then the family have to choose to pull the plug or not... well, when there is life in the body... it is this energy I am talking about that give life.

who knows?

you do not believe in science do you? Or perhaps you have never heard of the laws of physics?

After your life ceases? Yes there will be energy.
4) Would you agree that since this energy continues after life, this is called transcending life?

No. Life just continues.

seriously dude? Now you are just being silly... if energy continues after death, then it transcends life... hahahaha

There you go again. Can't you see that you make an unfathomable leap from a group of concepts which you are saying don't exist, yet use them as a foundation to posit the existence of something else equally as ridiculous.

"Concepts that don't exist?" the concepts I mentioned, which all related to energy, exists... and you agreed with most of them... energy is what we are... the concepts were the premisses of the argument which leads to a logical conclusion. Unlike your arguments, if I may mention.

How many human beings have you met in your life time?

this is just so stupid, that I am not even going to answer.

Have you EVER had a direct experience of a TRUE SELF? or a UNIVERSAL SELF?

Once again... yes!

9) This energy is what maintains the atoms together... and these are contained in everything... this energy that keeps you alive is the collective self... the universal self... is the energy in the universe

How do you get to SELF.

this energy is the SELF...

It makes sense that energy manifests life. By your reckoning, everything in the universe has a SELF.

NO! It does not "have" a SELF... EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE IS THE SELF. No separation, remember....

You clearly have CHARACTERISTICS muddled up with and collapsed into the notion of SELF. This computer has CHARACTERISTICS that identify it. It has energy, it even appears to THINK. But it doesn't give it a SELF.

Wrong again... the computer does not have energy... it is energy... it is made up of energy... the same energy that makes your body... and everything else in the universe.

What makes YOU more special than this computer? Like the rest of the universe, you are constructed of the same atoms right? This is oneness right? So what makes you so special?

Nothing makes me special... and I have never claimed to be special... I am just like the computer, just like a tree (remember)... there is no separation... it is all one... all energy... and all this is God... all of it... is the SELF...

The universal self or true self is a projection of your own sense of SELF! A cat doesn't look to the universe for guidance, it just operates from true nature as part of nature. Why can't you do it?

What does it mean... true nature? For a cat to operate from a true nature then there has to be something there that does the operating...

A cat operates from the "true self" as part of the universe... it is beyond nature... and I operate from the "true self" as part of the universe... just like a cat... a tree... a computer... there is no separation...

Perhaps this will help... what you call "True Nature" ... I call "True Self"...

[helio]

And you have a direct experience of the existence of God?

The only reason why I tell you these things is because of my experience, which if you recall, I mentioned at the beginning. Ever since I was 10 years old I have had, on several occasions, a direct experience... do you think I am making this shit up? You do not have to... believe me... you can ... convince yourself.

[helio]

You remind me a scene in the movie the matrix, where the betrayer says... "I rather believe in what I can [verify] taste," while he was eating a steak... and this is after he took the blue pill... hahahaha...

Do you believe that the desk that your computer sits on is solid? hahahaha...

Do you know what E = MC^2 stands for, and what it means? Perhaps you don't believe in this equation either? After all it is only a concept

You my friend are nothing but energy, just like everything else... and this is your True Self...

[mark_tywharton]

There is no separate you.

Never said there was. I kept telling you that there is only one... The "TRUE SELF," "The UNIVERSAL SELF," THE TRUE NATURE"

The TRUE SELF which so far you have been unable to actually describe in any detail?

What qualities does it have?