me, myself & I

[Florisness]

Hi Nil,

All of this is still a little fuzzy in my mind (so to speak), but certainly no aha moment. Expectations, right?

Yes most expectations are unrealistic. I don't know if you are completely clear yet, but just answer these questions as honest as you can. Here are the first three.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Cheers,
Floris

[o_nil]

Hi Floris,

Here goes:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no "self", "me", "I" in experience, just a concept or idea that thought displays. The illusion was there, but "I" never was. The illusion still creeps in if I get carried away by thoughts.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion appears whenever a thought embedding a sense of self arises. But there is no self in experience, just a thought of self. For example, I'm walking at a park and suddenly I feel hungry, then a thought appears "I'm hungry". But there is no "I". There is sight of a park, there is feeling of walking, then hunger arises and finally a thought appears. No "I". Note that "park" and "walking" are just thought labels. Thought creates a story of a "me" getting hungry while walking at the park. And whatever comes up from thought is fiction. The "I'm hungry" thought and hunger are real in direct experience. But not the "I" that creeps in the thought.
Thoughts are very often present in the background, so to speak. But "I" only "exists" when thought brings up its concept. Otherwise it's non-existent.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is very little difference in my experience between when I started this inquiry and now. The thing is, I can't really remember in the beginning what I was experiencing and what I was expecting. But here I can already see something that was in the way: expectations. Sure, I may have said something like "I don't expect anything fancy", but hey, of course I was. I was just fooling myself. And I still am to some extent. There is a small difference now, however, and that is whenever an iThought appears I don't attach a lot of emotion to it anymore. Drop importance to iThoughts: life still goes on anyway.

Tell me how I did! ("Praise, plz!" "Ain't 'I' fun?")
Nil

[Florisness]

Hi Nil,

Sure, I may have said something like "I don't expect anything fancy", but hey, of course I was. I was just fooling myself.

Thank you for the laugh :) You're answers are great though, so I'll shoot the last at you too. No need to give the 'correct' answers here.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Floris

[o_nil]

Hey Floris,

No need to give the 'correct' answers here.

"Got it."

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I don't really know. But if I had to take a guess, I'd say that my assumptions about "me" were put to the test and cornered in such a way that eventually they had to fall. Anytime I pretended there was an "I", be it a feeling or a thought or whatnot, being told time and again something along the lines: "Are you sure? Is there an 'I' in direct experience?" made me look... I think.
Sometimes doubt still arises, but all it takes is to see what doubt actually is: thought and feeling, like everything else. And no need for an "I".

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decision: Same as control.
Intention: Same as decision.
Free will: Same as intention.
Choice: Same as free will.
Control: Same as choice.
Get it?

What makes things happen? Ha, hell if I know! You tell me.

What am I responsible for? Nothing and everything. Nothing because there is no "I". Everything because "no I" is part of the flow of life.

Examples from experience? Sorry, I don't have any in particular. I mean, where to start?

6) Anything to add?

A lot of the stock phrases you come across in non-dual literature are starting to make more sense in my experience. My personal favorite being "It's all good". Feeling bored? Okay, boredom is experienced.
I still don't get the "all-is-one" thing. But hey, it's all good": not-getting-it is being experienced. And can't be otherwise because that's the way it is! Darn.

Thanks Floris!
Nil.

[Florisness]

Hello Nil

What am I responsible for? Nothing and everything. Nothing because there is no "I". Everything because "no I" is part of the flow of life.

If you were asked to describe what "I" refers to as precisely as possible, what would you write?

So what is benefiting from all this inquiry work? Anything it is all happening too?


Floris

[o_nil]

Hello Floris,

If you were asked to describe what "I" refers to as precisely as possible, what would you write?

Tough question, especially the "as precisely as possible" part. I'd say "I" is a sense of ownership bundled to memories and thoughts. That sense is sort of an ornament to thoughts: iThoughts. But "I" actually refers to nothing.

So what is benefiting from all this inquiry work? Anything it is all happening too?

Honestly, I don't know what is benefiting from this inquiry.

Sorry, really don't know what to say...
Nil

[Florisness]

Hello Nil,

Sorry, really don't know what to say...

I'm sorry, are you okay? Your answers at some points are a bit intellectual so I'm just poking a bit, some of these questions try to draw you out a bit. It's all done with the best intention :) How are you feeling these days?

Tough question, especially the "as precisely as possible" part. I'd say "I" is a sense of ownership bundled to memories and thoughts. That sense is sort of an ornament to thoughts: iThoughts. But "I" actually refers to nothing.

Okay could you please redo this one, now from looking/experience?

Honestly, I don't know what is benefiting from this inquiry.

Is there anything that this is all happening to?

All the best,
Floris

[o_nil]

Hey Floris,

Your answers at some points are a bit intellectual so I'm just poking a bit, some of these questions try to draw you out a bit. It's all done with the best intention :) How are you feeling these days?

Feeling the usual, nothing to report.
Please don't hesitate to poke, and even slap if necessary :-D

If you were asked to describe what "I" refers to as precisely as possible, what would you write?

Tough question, especially the "as precisely as possible" part. I'd say "I" is a sense of ownership bundled to memories and thoughts. That sense is sort of an ornament to thoughts: iThoughts. But "I" actually refers to nothing.

Okay could you please redo this one, now from looking/experience?

I feel like my back is against the wall, I mean I don't know what to add besides what I wrote the previous time... Experience being the iThoughts.

Is there anything that this is all happening to?

I really don't get the question...

I tried to reflect on these questions today, but I honestly can't come up with anything else.
Maybe I missed something?

Cheers,
Nil

[Florisness]

Hello Nil,

I tried to reflect on these questions today, but I honestly can't come up with anything else.
Maybe I missed something?

No it's fine

I really don't get the question...

okay i'll be a bit clearer this time. We learned to think that there is something that is experiencing life (usually refered to as 'I'), life is happening to it. When a day is horrible, it is a horrible day for me. Or if it's a great day, it's a great day for me. The word "me" in the last two lines being the "it" from ' life is happening to it'. (I hope I did a better job formulating the question this time haha)
So.. is there such a thing? This was related to the 'is there something benefiting from all this inquiry?'-question. Is there something that can bear (or undergoes) the benefits or horrors from anything?

Another question for you :)
At some point, the idea happened to seek something from LU. From where did that idea emerge ?

Btw, earlier in our conversation you mentioned something about fear of losing control, have you still noticed this?

Floris

[o_nil]

Good morning,

We learned to think that there is something that is experiencing life (usually refered to as 'I'), life is happening to it. When a day is horrible, it is a horrible day for me. Or if it's a great day, it's a great day for me. The word "me" in the last two lines being the "it" from ' life is happening to it'. (I hope I did a better job formulating the question this time haha)
So.. is there such a thing? This was related to the 'is there something benefiting from all this inquiry?'-question. Is there something that can bear (or undergoes) the benefits or horrors from anything?

Thanks for taking the time to rephrase your question! I'll give a shot at answering it, using some examples.
I spent last weekend with good friends: I was joyful. On the other hand, I had to ditch my car yesterday on my way back from work because of too much black ice on the road: I was (and still am) worried whether I'll get it back intact.
That said, all of the above is impersonal. I mean, sure I prefer good days over bad days, but it's just an opinion that "I" holds and it doesn't really matter. From a functional standpoint, I can benefit from stuff that occurs: like a dog, I can learn new tricks.
Hope I didn't miss the mark this time :-p

At some point, the idea happened to seek something from LU. From where did that idea emerge ?

Hum, I can make up a story if you like. It came from the fact that I read about non-duality and so forth, blah blah. But the story could infinitely go on, so I don't think I can tell you exactly whence the idea came. I'd probably have to backtrack to the beginning of time. Too intellectual maybe?

Btw, earlier in our conversation you mentioned something about fear of losing control, have you still noticed this?

Funny you mentioned that. On my way back home last weekend, I fishtailed quite a bit on the freeway (ice again) and I felt fear arising. Somehow I kept cool and managed to recover. I don't know how that happened. All I can tell you is that I felt at that moment fear of losing control and at the same time the recovery just happened... "I" simply wasn't there to take over. Does that make sense?

Thanks!
Nil

[Florisness]

I'll write back tomorrow:)

have a good day,
F

[o_nil]

Sounds good, Floris!
Talk to you then,
Nil

[Florisness]

Good morning!

I'd probably have to backtrack to the beginning of time.

Yes, which is interesting. Could you elaborate?:) what do you think we would find?

All I can tell you is that I felt at that moment fear of losing control and at the same time the recovery just happened... "I" simply wasn't there to take over." ..

And what is the consequence of seeing that it just happened without any controller/doer. Have you let the implications sink in yet? If there is no self which controls anything, then how did anything happen until now? How does this make you feel that there is no control?

Also, do you feel superior to others, knowing something that they seem not to?

have a nice day,
Floris

[o_nil]

Hi Floris,

I'd probably have to backtrack to the beginning of time.

Yes, which is interesting. Could you elaborate?:) what do you think we would find?

I don't think we could find anything in the sense that should we find anything, it would only be a thought product... And I ain't sure thoughts are that trustworthy. And isn't time itself a thought product? If nothing was happening then time would be meaningless. I see stuff happening and I try to connect one event after another and there you go: time. To do so, there has to be some kind of memory to retain the idea of previous events as opposed to current events. But the memory appears in thought and its content isn't actually what's currently happening. So, drop memories and time is no more.

And what is the consequence of seeing that it just happened without any controller/doer. Have you let the implications sink in yet?

I understand the implications at an intellectual level, but I have yet to realize it. I feel deep down there is still resistance, well hidden behind the curtain of "I'm cool with anything". I still wear that poker-face, pretending that everything's cool when deep down I dislike my job, I'm bored, I'm clueless of what to do with myself. Thoughts that would be qualified by shrinks as suicidal do cross my mind every now and then. But hey, "It's cool, all good". In a sense, it actually is. But as I am typing this, I know there is still a part of me somewhere that disagrees.
So to answer your question, I think the implications have *not* sunk in. And I can't force it in: no control, right? I can try and keep looking as often as I can, though. But then, it does look like I have control... Uh-oh, doubt!

If there is no self which controls anything, then how did anything happen until now?

The same way everything outside the human-made realm happens: on its own. See, the problem is whenever I'm asked a question like that, the mind tries to figure out an answer that can't actually be found. Only more stories. I mean, what isn't a story?

How does this make you feel that there is no control?

Like I said above, "I'm cool with it"... But am I really? Not quite sure because I still act as if I knew and realized it, but it doesn't seem to be the case. I'm deluded and full of it.

Also, do you feel superior to others, knowing something that they seem not to?

Great question! A little honesty won't hurt... except myself!
Short answer: Yes. No. Maybe.
I've never understood how people could live their lives without seeing how pointless it was. "Growth", "progress", what a joke. I mean, at the end of the day, all that is necessary for one to survive is food, water and shelter. Anything else is totally moot. So yes.
Yet here I am worrying about my future, what if I quit my job and ran out of money ending up in the street, searching "happiness" just like everybody else. So no.
Incidentally, a lot of people are probably doing the same as I am: pretending while being miserable. There is no way to know for sure.
My answer being yes and no, I'll settle for the middle ground: maybe.

Wow, was I talkative this time! I hope you have fun reading this.
It looks like I'm far from being done yet, so please keep it going!
Cheers,
Nil

[Florisness]

Hi Nil,

I understand the implications at an intellectual level, but I have yet to realize it. I feel deep down there is still resistance, well hidden behind the curtain of "I'm cool with anything". I still wear that poker-face, pretending that everything's cool when deep down I dislike my job, I'm bored, I'm clueless of what to do with myself. Thoughts that would be qualified by shrinks as suicidal do cross my mind every now and then. But hey, "It's cool, all good". In a sense, it actually is. But as I am typing this, I know there is still a part of me somewhere that disagrees.
So to answer your question, I think the implications have *not* sunk in. And I can't force it in: no control, right? I can try and keep looking as often as I can, though. But then, it does look like I have control... Uh-oh, doubt!

Are you waiting for a realization and hope that will fix the issues? I don't hope you do, because even when the implications sink in some more, the problems will still be there.
Yes thoughts are always manipulating, but is there any fooler and fooled?

"but then, it does look like I have control" is there any reason to belief that this looking and inquiring doesn't happen completely uncontrolled on it's own?

How about reasons, do things happen because of reasons?

Floris