"Looking for" direct experience

[DanielP]

Hi Jason,

The clarification: …by applying a definition does it (sound) have separation, but under the light of awareness there is no separation. If this is still unclear, I will try and explain further.

Thanks Jason, much clearer now.

Ok let’s move on. I’ll leave you the exploration of the remaining senses which are not as important as the ones we’ve explored so far. As you might guess, we arrive at the same conclusions. Don’t take my words for it, and check it out for yourself. We are looking for a first hand experience and not another layer of beliefs :)

Next we’ll look into the experience of the body.

Body experiment

First, sit, breathe and let the dust settle. When you feel ready, close your eyes, go to any one bodily sensation which feels dominant right now. Feel it thoroughly. Then answer the questions.

Questions:
Do you experience a separate entity that feels?
Do you experience an independent feeler or senser?
By relying solely on sensations, not on thoughts, inference, imagination or how you think feeling should be, do you experience a separation between that which feels and the feeling, the sensation?

Do you experience an object separate from the sensation which is producing the sensation? For instance, if you’re sitting on a bad chair, do you experience a chair plus a sensation of discomfort? Answering yes to this question would mean that you experience an object outside of your experience, but is that true?

Do you experience sensation to be independent from sensing or feeling?
Do you experience the sensation to be distinct or separate from perception?
Does the feeling seem to be waiting for you to feel it?

Do you experience the feeling as separate from you?
Is there any distance between you and the sensation?
Do you experience feeling as separate from that which feels it?
Do you experience feeling as something that exists independently of what perceives, of awareness?
When you say I feel a sensation, is it the same experience as being aware of a sensation?

Tell me what you find.

Regards

Daniel

[Spacious]

Questions:
Do you experience a separate entity that feels? No
Do you experience an independent feeler or senser? No
By relying solely on sensations, not on thoughts, inference, imagination or how you think feeling should be, do you experience a separation between that which feels and the feeling, the sensation? No

Do you experience an object separate from the sensation which is producing the sensation? No, there is only sensation.

For instance, if you’re sitting on a bad chair, do you experience a chair plus a sensation of discomfort? No, there is only discomfort.


Do you experience sensation to be independent from sensing or feeling? No, they are the same thing.
Do you experience the sensation to be distinct or separate from perception? No, they are the same.
Does the feeling seem to be waiting for you to feel it? No, there's only awareness of the feeling.

Do you experience the feeling as separate from you? No, the feeling is part of the field of awareness.
Is there any distance between you and the sensation? No.
Do you experience feeling as separate from that which feels it? No.
Do you experience feeling as something that exists independently of what perceives, of awareness? No, they are the same thing. Awarness is all things it seems.
When you say I feel a sensation, is it the same experience as being aware of a sensation? No.

[DanielP]

Hi Jason,

Great! Let’s move on to ‘Experience-ing’ then.

Experience-ing experiment

If now we were to put all the senses together - 'Seeing', 'Hearing', 'Feeling', 'Tasting' and 'Smelling' as well as Sensing or the experience of the body and call that 'Experiencing'; This one word used to sum up all the senses and sensing together, just feel or live whatever experience you are living right now and answer the following questions :

Is there anything to be found in 'Experiencing' other than 'The Current Experience'?
Can anything be found 'doing experiencing', or is the only thing to find is 'The Current Experience'?
Is there a body or an 'I', a 'Jason' to be found experiencing right now (performing the function of 'experiencing'?
Really try to see if you can find anything 'doing it', ‘doing’ or ‘having’ the experience. Can anything be found? Or is there just 'the current experience'?

And last, take the phrase or thought / idea / belief 'I am experiencing' - How does it sounds? What is this 'I' in the phrase? If instead we say ‘experiencing is happening’, does it change something? does is sounds more or less true?

Regards

Daniel

[Spacious]

Is there anything to be found in 'Experiencing' other than 'The Current Experience'? No.

Can anything be found 'doing experiencing', or is the only thing to find is 'The Current Experience'? Physical tension (sensation) gives the sense of doing the experience, but this is just a label. There is only current experience.
Is there a body or an 'I', a 'Jason' to be found experiencing right now (performing the function of 'experiencing'? No, only experience/awareness.
Really try to see if you can find anything 'doing it', ‘doing’ or ‘having’ the experience. Can anything be found? No Or is there just 'the current experience'? Current experience is all there is. It is tempting to say yes, but when interrogating that, a feeling (fear) is what can be found, but this is experience as well.

And last, take the phrase or thought / idea / belief 'I am experiencing' - How does it sounds? Strange with the I as here is only experience, I can't find an executive agent, only experience. What is this 'I' in the phrase? A concept, a trick of language. If instead we say ‘experiencing is happening’, does it change something? Yes does is sounds more or less true? More true.

[DanielP]

Hi Jason,

Good so let’s continue with the sense of doership. One of the ways that the separate self makes itself felt, is with the sense of being the doer, the one in charge in 'your' life.

Simply sitting

You will need about 15-20 min of calm to simply sit. This is very simple, read the instructions, do the sitting, and then answer the questions.

Here it is:
Sit in a quiet place, in a relatively still position or lie down on the back if you prefer.
Be silent and alert.
Do whatever you're doing.
Do this for 10 to 15 minutes.

While you're sitting and doing whatever you're doing, if you feel uncomfortable, you can shift a bit, move your legs, your hands, scratch, stretch your neck, but try not to move around or get up to go and sit elsewhere. For the duration of the exercise, stay at the same place.

Within these parameters, simply do whatever you're doing. Think what you're thinking, feel what you're feeling, experience what you're experiencing. There is no right or wrong way to simply sit. There's nothing to concentrate on, nothing you need to do.

It's not possible to become distracted in this because there is no object of concentration or method to follow. It's impossible for you to go wrong. If you enjoy the experiment, you enjoy it, if you don't, you don't.

Now, do the sitting
*****************************************************************************************************************************************************
Questions :
Are you doing something or you're doing nothing?
Are you breathing or it breathes?
Are you thinking or thinking happens?
If the thought 'I did something' is present, doesn’t happen after the fact, like a comment of the experience that has just been experienced?

Regards

Daniel

[Spacious]

Questions
Nothing is being done
Breathing happens
Thinking happens
The thought is the consequence of the event. This last point is an excellent piece of insight

My apologies for being a few days in getting back in touch, laziness has grabbed hold in the last couple of days

[DanielP]

Hi Jason,

Nothing is being done
Breathing happens
Thinking happens
The thought is the consequence of the event. This last point is an excellent piece of insight

Good!

Let's now talk about the sense of choice. The idea of being the 'chooser' !

Choosing experiment - finding the function of choice

We will explore the function of choice by investigating a choice between two drinks.

The aim is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in direct experience.

Required items - A chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks will work. To simplify, I will use drink 1 and drink 2 to describe the experiment.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you and sit comfortably on the chair.

Start by taking a few breath in order to let the dust settle.

Then:
1- In turn, look at drink 1 and drink 2: think of their respective qualities, what you like in them, what you prefer, compare, evaluate. Observe whether there is a preference for one or the other.
2- Count up to 5.
3- Choose one of the drinks. Grasp it. Take a sip.

Questions :
We are looking for a function or something, an 'I' that chooses, that decides.

In step 1,
Thinking of the qualities of each drink, have you chosen the qualities? Or did they've pop up on their own?
Considering your preferences for one or the other, have you chosen these preferences? Or did they appeared on their own?

In Step 2,
Counting up to 5, if the preferences have been put aside for a moment and the count has taken the place, have you chosen this turn of events?
Have you chosen the putting aside of the preferences and the appearance of the count?
Have you experienced the emergence of a function that chooses and has influenced preferences and counting? Did you see it in action?

In step 3,
Where you did made a choice, did you witness or have you directly experienced a function or mental faculty that chooses? Is there anything in the experience that announced, 'I am what or the one who chooses'? If so, what does it look like? And to be truly a function, it must be something other than a feeling.

We sometimes try to prove the existence of a separate self by saying that we 'feel' it. In this case one would say 'I have the feeling that 'I' choose'. If this is the case, tell me, can a feeling make a choice ? Is that what feelings usually do? Can a feeling choose?

At the exact moment you felt the desire to take drink 1 or 2, did you choose the desire? Have you experienced directly a function that desires, or chooses? If so, what does it look like?

Regards

Daniel

[Spacious]

Questions :
We are looking for a function or something, an 'I' that chooses, that decides.

In step 1,
Thinking of the qualities of each drink, have you chosen the qualities? No.

Or did they've pop up on their own? They emerged on their own.

Considering your preferences for one or the other, have you chosen these preferences? There is no I choosing them, the choice happens.

Or did they appeared on their own? They appeared from no thing.

In Step 2,
Counting up to 5, if the preferences have been put aside for a moment and the count has taken the place, have you chosen this turn of events? No, there is no choice made.

Have you chosen the putting aside of the preferences and the appearance of the count? No, no choice was seen being made.

Have you experienced the emergence of a function that chooses and has influenced preferences and counting? There was no appearance of a count, nor a appearance of a function of choice.

Did you see it in action? No, it just manifested.

In step 3,
Where you did made a choice, did you witness or have you directly experienced a function or mental faculty that chooses? There was nothing observed, there choice manifested.

Is there anything in the experience that announced, 'I am what or the one who chooses'? Nothing appeared, nor made any announcement.

If so, what does it look like? There was nothing. And to be truly a function, it must be something other than a feeling.

We sometimes try to prove the existence of a separate self by saying that we 'feel' it. In this case one would say 'I have the feeling that 'I' choose'. If this is the case, tell me, can a feeling make a choice? I guess this would be another example of it happening after the fact. The feeling is more a consequence to the manifestation of an action. Is that what feelings usually do? No, feelings are a response. Can a feeling choose? That seems similar to asking if a sensation of touching can choose.

At the exact moment you felt the desire to take drink 1 or 2, did you choose the desire? No, the desire was automatic. Have you experienced directly a function that desires, or chooses? No.

[DanielP]

Hi Jason,

Busy today, I'll be back tomorrow.

Daniel

[DanielP]

Hi Jason,

Things have been running smoothly until now.

Here’s a little summary :
Up ‘til now, you’ve seen that no ‘I’ was found in the ‘action’ of the senses : seeing, hearing, touching etc.
You’ve seen that no ‘I’ was found as an ‘owner’ or a ‘feeler’ of the body.
No ‘I’ was found as an ‘experiencer’ of the ‘current experience’ which is all we know (in the sense that we are always in contact with or always IN a ‘Current experience’).
You’ve also seen that no 'doer' was found and last that no 'chooser' was found either.
Right?

By the way, I’m not here to convince you of anything. This is a summary based on my understanding of your answers. So please tell me if this isn’t your experience or if some things still need to be clarified.

So what’s left to explore?
Do you have any specific area you would like us to look into?
In one of your early post, you’ve said that you were inquiring a belief that space is three dimensional. Do you still need to inquire into this belief? Or any other belief?

Talk to you later

Daniel

[Spacious]

The summary is accurate.

Do you have any specific area you would like us to look into?

Separation between body and the rest of the world.
Identifying with three dimensional space.
How being around others leads to beliefs in a self.

Beyond that, I'm not sure, I'm guess you have lots more areas to work with me regarding unpicking belief.

[DanielP]

Hi Jason,

Separation between body and the rest of the world.
Identifying with three dimensional space.
How being around others leads to beliefs in a self.

Good. So let's look at them in this order then.

'Separation between body and the rest of the world.'

We usually think that we experience the world through our five senses, right? In this model, there is some kind of entity (an ‘I’), the ghost in the machine (machine being the body), who is having an experience 'in here' of a world located 'out there', right?

Here is a few things you can look at to see if this separation really exist in your direct experience :

Look at a tree (or any other object), you are having a visual experience, you are experiencing a sight, or a visual perception, whatever way you want to call it.

Look at a tree and tell me :

In this experience of seeing, is there any separation between ‘that which sees’ and ‘what is seen’?
Is there any distance between you and this ‘perception’?
Where do you experience this ‘perception’? ‘In here’ or ‘out there’?
Doesn’t the image appear IN you, so to speak?
Have you had any seeing experience where this was not the case?
Can you perceive a visual image ‘outside’ of perception? If so, where is located this ‘outside’ of perception?

*****************************************************************************************************************************************************
Now using this same set of questions, you can look at your experience of the world from the point of view of hearing, touching, etc.

In the experience of hearing, is there any separation between ‘that which hears’ and ‘what is heard’? etc.

In the experience of touching, is there any separation between ‘that which feels’ and ‘what is felt or touched’? etc.

With the experiment on the senses we’ve looked at this already. Sometimes, we see things clearly but don’t realize all of the implications. The question is : Where do you experience things? What makes it possible to have an experience in the first place? What ‘substance’ enables you to have any experience? If you've always experience things 'in here', where is 'out there' then?

Regards

Daniel

[Spacious]

'Separation between body and the rest of the world.'

We usually think that we experience the world through our five senses, right? Yes

In this model, there is some kind of entity (an ‘I’), the ghost in the machine (machine being the body), who is having an experience 'in here' of a world located 'out there', right? So our assumptions leads us to believe.

Here is a few things you can look at to see if this separation really exist in your direct experience :

Look at a tree (or any other object), you are having a visual experience, you are experiencing a sight, or a visual perception, whatever way you want to call it.

Look at a tree and tell me :

In this experience of seeing, is there any separation between ‘that which sees’ and ‘what is seen’? No.
Is there any distance between you and this ‘perception’? No
Where do you experience this ‘perception’? ‘In here’ or ‘out there’? Both, there is no separation.
Doesn’t the image appear IN you, so to speak? My assumption is that, I feel they are symbiotic so to speak, like one cannot exist without the other.
Have you had any seeing experience where this was not the case? No
Can you perceive a visual image ‘outside’ of perception? No If so, where is located this ‘outside’ of perception? It isn't. Another belief that seems to be forming is that visuals cannot happen without perception even though direct experience seems to confirm this.

*****************************************************************************************************************************************************
Now using this same set of questions, you can look at your experience of the world from the point of view of hearing, touching, etc.

In the experience of hearing, is there any separation between ‘that which hears’ and ‘what is heard’? No etc.

In the experience of touching, is there any separation between ‘that which feels’ and ‘what is felt or touched’? No etc.

With the experiment on the senses we’ve looked at this already. Sometimes, we see things clearly but don’t realize all of the implications. The question is : Where do you experience things? Experience experiences things, it would seem this is without location. A common past belief has been that things happen in the mind, but this cannot be seen. Only seeing happens so to speak.

What makes it possible to have an experience in the first place? Awareness/consciousness What ‘substance’ enables you to have any experience? Experience allows experience.

If you've always experience things 'in here', where is 'out there' then? Nothing.

[DanielP]

Hi Jason,

We usually think that we experience the world through our five senses, right?

Yes

:)

In this model, there is some kind of entity (an ‘I’), the ghost in the machine (machine being the body), who is having an experience 'in here' of a world located 'out there', right?

So our assumptions leads us to believe.

Assumptions ARE beliefs.

In this experience of seeing, is there any separation between ‘that which sees’ and ‘what is seen’?

No.

:)

Is there any distance between you and this ‘perception’?

No

:)

Where do you experience this ‘perception’? ‘In here’ or ‘out there’?

Both, there is no separation.

Yep

Doesn’t the image appear IN you, so to speak?

My assumption is that, I feel they are symbiotic so to speak, like one cannot exist without the other.

An assumption?

Have you had any seeing experience where this was not the case?

No

Me neither.

Can you perceive a visual image ‘outside’ of perception?

No

:)

If so, where is located this ‘outside’ of perception?

It isn't.

:)

Another belief that seems to be forming is that visuals cannot happen without perception even though direct experience seems to confirm this.

Is this really your direct experience? A visual perception that wasn’t perceive?
From the point of view of experience, is there any difference between :
I see a tree. A tree is seen. And the seeing of a tree happens? Are they different experiences?
Can a tree be seen if it’s not seen? Remember, if a tree falls in a forest but there is no one to hear it…

Where do you experience things?

Experience experiences things, it would seem this is without location.

Yep.

A common past belief has been that things happen in the mind, but this cannot be seen. Only seeing happens so to speak.

Only seeing happens is a good way of putting it.

What makes it possible to have an experience in the first place?

Awareness/consciousness

ok

What ‘substance’ enables you to have any experience?

Experience allows experience.

ok.

If you've always experience things 'in here', where is 'out there' then?

Nothing.

:)

Let’s continue with the two remaining beliefs you wanted to explore :

Identifying with three dimensional space.
and
How being around others leads to beliefs in a self.

Can you now see that both of these beliefs are related to this idea of location?

The three dimensional space :
I’m ’in here’ looking at something ‘out there’ but if you remember the seeing experiment. Did you SEE distance? Can you SMELL distance? TOUCH distance? When looking at a tree, is there any distance between you and the tree?

About being around others :
If I’m ’in here’, then others must be ‘out there’. But does your direct experience support this?

Regards

Daniel

[Spacious]

Is this really your direct experience? A visual perception that wasn’t perceived?

From the point of view of experience, is there any difference between :
I see a tree. A tree is seen. And the seeing of a tree happens? No Are they different experiences? No
Can a tree be seen if it’s not seen? No. Remember, if a tree falls in a forest but there is no one to hear it…

Can you now see that both of these beliefs are related to this idea of location? I do, location is a concept.

The three dimensional space :
I’m ’in here’ looking at something ‘out there’ but if you remember the seeing experiment. Did you SEE distance? No, there is only the interpretation of distance. Can you SMELL distance? No TOUCH distance? No When looking at a tree, is there any distance between you and the tree? Only the idea of distance creates this sense. It's all within awareness.

About being around others :
If I’m ’in here’, then others must be ‘out there’. But does your direct experience support this? No, all exists within awareness.

Regards