Tim

[Canfora]

Hi Tim,

Dear Sandra, no worries about any "delays?!". You are right, about this stage I find myself in. The "heat" is of to get something from the exploration. With that ever time there is a looking "past" another layer the is a sense of recognition. Part of this recognition is that there is no rush or even a need for these insights. That alone is liberation!! The end of searching??? So when ever you have a chance to respond or not, just fine!!

Also, the "dawning" appears to take longer. What I mean by that is, that earlier on your inquiries where always met with a kind of mental blankness (besides other sensations). This blankness appears to persist longer now until there is the "sudden" un blankness (aka recognition) of where your questions are pointing at. At the beginning of our inquiry there was lots of mental action to get to this point, now it's more a softening of mind, with this knowing that the recognition will occur without a "personal effort".

Wonderful. Good to know there is no rush or even a need for insights. Sounds very liberating!

So in my last post I mention that "other element" in the experience. This aware beside the attention flowing back and forth. This aware wasn't attention, but rather that that is "left standing" after everything is dropped including attention. So this aware cannot be directed or manipulated in any way. It just is.

So what dawned on me is, that there is a progress of being attentive, or in other words using attention the "flashlight" for different purposes. So initial stage is an unawareness of the potential to use attention. Then comes the recognition of the ability to direct attention. This stage is captivating, because attention is a powerful tool.

Yes, being able to see clearly what is here now is a powerful tool.

So attention is an aspect of the senses. It's part, yet somehow prior to becoming aware of an sensation. It is like the pre selector of what one is becoming aware of. With that it is the same as breathing, it happens by itself, without a doer, yet by experiencing the action of sensating this illusive i appears. Like I direct my attention from the seer to the seeing to the seen. Now the next stage is "slipping out" of this experience and being aware. This aware is beyond and free of attention! So in short, attention doesn't move around, it seems more like the three aspects of sensation (seed, seeing, seen) are moving thru "attention" (makes no sense, but this is how it felt to me).

I think I understand what you're saying. When you look, can you see there is no separation - can you see there is no you separated from all the rest?

It occurred to me that this situation are any situation just happen like they were predetermined. Depending on which stage of "attention" ,naturally eventually "outgrowing" itself to be aware, there is variously degree of I.

I don't understand what you're saying here Tim.

What do you mean by predetermined? Can you give me an example of a situation that happens like if it was predetermined?

And if a separate I can't be found, how can there variously degree of I?

Big hug,
S

[Canfora]

Hi Tim!

My little vacation is over. How are things going?

Hug,
S

[Mohrtim]

Dear Sandra,

Thx for checking in and apologies for "disappearing" from our dialog!!

I actually wrote a response to ur earlier post, but it didn't get posted and the draft disappeared. After that life got so "interesting" that i haven't come up for air much!

Lots of situations have been happening that were experienced (with a increasing tendency) of "me" being in this world, but not of it. So that refers to out last inquiry.

hat do you mean by predetermined? Can you give me an example of a situation that happens like if it was predetermined

Hmm, not predetermined, but rather determined. So with no self involved, to filter input, there are only "uncensored" experiences. Seen what is, rather what an I would make of it, an experience just happens. The element of "preference" is now missing. Also all the connecting dots of the "big" picture are becoming obvious. A sense of being"lived" and sometimes "guided" to do, say or be something is getting stronger. Once in a while the notion of "I feel like doing...."comes up, but right away the recognition occurs that there wasn't anybody here to make this feeling. So determined in such sense as that life happens on its one.

When you look, can you see there is no separation - can you see there is no you separated from all the rest

The present experience is that things are happening. Thoughts, emotions, sensations etc. It is noticed that any of them are just happening without involvement. There is also the sense that there is only a small distance for any of these experiences to "make" for a sense of I.

And if a separate I can't be found, how can there variously degree of I?

This isn't the present experience, but rather a "summary" of the past experiences. I'm very aware of the progression taken so far to come to recognition.

Tim

[Canfora]

Hi Tim!

Thx for checking in and apologies for "disappearing" from our dialog!!

That's okay.

How would you answer this question: Is there 100% confidence that the separate entity 'self' 'me' 'i' is an illusion?

Hug,
S

[Mohrtim]

Dear Sandra,

Thx for your guidance! It has made a world of a difference!

Is there 100% confidence that the separate entity 'self' 'me' 'i' is an illusion?

That has become easy to answer. Yes, there is 100% confidence that a seperate entity a self, me or I is an illusion!

Tim

[Canfora]

Dear Tim,

Thx for your guidance! It has made a world of a difference!

You're very welcome.

That has become easy to answer. Yes, there is 100% confidence that a seperate entity a self, me or I is an illusion!

Wonderful!

Here is another question:

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Big hug,
S

[Mohrtim]

Dear Sandra,

plain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now

Somewhen after birth one becomes self-conscious. This apparent "advanced" state of awareness, which is only subscribed to humans and "higher functioning" mammals, is the beginning of the illusionary experience of a self. Prior to this state one is not conscious of a self, yet still conscious. There are two factors that lead to the change of stages. The environment of the newborn and the faculties of the biological computer, that one learns to perceive as "my body". The environment "programs" one to identify with "oneself" at every occasion. Not out of "bad intentions", but rather because that is all that the environment is and knows. Also the biological computer in the act of experiencing opens up the sensation of "who" experiences? With that it is "only natural" to perceive an "I" as the one that experiences.

From the earliest beginning, this perceived "I" becomes reinforced at every opportunity of living. To such a degree that one doesn't stop to question ones experiences at all. It is naturally assumed that there is a "I" having all these experiences. Eventually, cause by circumstances there is a progress of recognition about the state of "I". For being unaware of living as an "I", to acknowledging being "manipulated" by an "I", to building a relationship with the "I", to the final recognition that there never was an "I".

So the "I" is not only not necessary to be alive, but furthermore acts like a filter between what one perceives and what is actually happening. This filtering of the "Truth" enhances the sense of I. Once this "filter" is realized as a faulty information intake device, one doesn't perceive anymore, but rather is "liberated" to be aware.

Tim

[Canfora]

That's a very beautiful answer Tim, thank you.
I suppose you have already noticed that I am asking you the "LU final standard questions". They're a good way to check if something is still unclear and needs more looking.
If meanwhile doubts or questions arise, feel free to let me know and we can have a look at them!

Here is the next question:

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

[Mohrtim]

Dear Sandra,

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It's a paradigm shift from "improving" an "I" to the realization there is nobody to improve. That shuts everything off that was done before of!!

The main difference is a sense of centered quiteness, with moments of being in awe. Thoughts, emotions and sensations appear just like they did before, but even without looking deeply to see if there is anybody having any of these experiences there is a recognition of certainty. It's like it is raining heavily (aka unpleasant experience), but one is under a shelter. It doesn't get in, and one stays dry. Interestingly, same applies for the sunny experiences. In other words neither the "bad" nor the "good" find much traction. This sense of "not being involved" (not being involved in a story, yet "being" fully there) resonates positively with the human environment. Other people are like wise perceived as an experience without anybody making their "behaviour". That leads to a higher potential for genuine interactions.

Step seven "The Falling" resonates very much.

Tim

[Canfora]

Dear Tim,

Thank you for your answer!

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Big hug,
S

[Mohrtim]

Dear Sandra,

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There isn't a moment of a "final" push. It was more like a late recognition of " oh, the gate had already been crossed for a while".

So Sandra made me look, every step of the way. I was trying to look, but wouldn't see very much at the beginning. I recall, a the start of the inquiry, an intense "urge" to see what you where looking at. Since you where seeing, so it should be able for me to, if I just kept looking at what you where pointing. So little by little I started to "see". There was a great deal of time invested into "looking" and the seeing happened in stages rather than one final moment.

So the short answer is that Sandra's looking "rubbed of", made possible by Tim's willingness to look.

Tim

[Canfora]

Dear Tim,

Thank you for your patience.

So Sandra made me look, every step of the way. I was trying to look, but wouldn't see very much at the beginning. I recall, a the start of the inquiry, an intense "urge" to see what you where looking at. Since you where seeing, so it should be able for me to, if I just kept looking at what you where pointing. So little by little I started to "see". There was a great deal of time invested into "looking" and the seeing happened in stages rather than one final moment.

So the short answer is that Sandra's looking "rubbed of", made possible by Tim's willingness to look.

What you wrote made me remember a metaphor I like about guiding: it's a little like tuning a piano. You keep pressing the keys until there is resonance.

You already answered this question but some time has elapsed and I think it's a good idea if you have a look at this again, if you don't mind:

• Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?
  
  Give examples from experience.

And this is the last one:

• Anything to add?

Big hug,
S

[Mohrtim]

Dear Sandra,

Thank you for your patience.

No need for patience. This inquiry is in sync with everything else that is happening, so whatever timing, it's just right!!

Need to draw this out a bit, since it's coming to an end, and this valuable exchange will be missed!!!

What you wrote made me remember a metaphor I like about guiding: it's a little like tuning a piano. You keep pressing the keys until there is resonance

Hahaha, took 10 years of intensive seeking, or is it more like a lifetime of living, to experience the "humble" (or humbling) state of being played like a piano. Oh never mind, of course not the whole piano, just one key!! (Just kidding, that metaphor is absolutely to the point!!!).

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control

These are all "symptoms" of having the experience of a seperate entity and also further the "illusion" of self. Having these experiences point at different directions of which a sense of ownership is taken. It's like one is experiencing somewhat behind the curve. Something is happening, "all by itself", and since without looking, nothing can "just" happen, ownership is taken. So decision and intention are actions taken "prior" to what happens. Than if that happens, the experience is that I have made that happen, in "reality" one only gets to experience having had the intention prior to the happening. In actuality there isn't a gap between the happening and the intention, aka no "i" needed to make it happen. Free will, choice and control likewise are illusions of having someone having some kind of personal input in how things are happening.

What makes things happen?

Life makes things happening. Or rather existence makes life possible in a "hidden" manner, that is "capturable" when lived without "looking". When looked the hidden order of things start becoming noticeable.

How does it work

Existing doesn't happen in a "vacuum". Nothing just happens without something happening. This very complex "system" of Live is connecting everything "together". From a "participant" point of view, there are numerous perspectives one can "experience". One of them is that one is different from the "system" and in "control" of it.

[What are you responsible for?/quote]

As long as there is a perceived me/you, one actually can't even be responsible since there isn't anybody/anything there to be responsible. This would be "taking" responsibility, aka taking or being in control, which is as illusive as the entity which "arises" from that action.

Responsibility is only possible after having come to recognize that life happens without a seperate entity. So after crossing the "Gate" is where responsibility starts, which is of different sort than the "ordinary" one.

Nothing to add at the moment, but if there weren't any more cans of worms opened with this post and this is the end of the inquiry, please check in a while since there might be something to add later on!

Always grateful

Tim

[Canfora]

Hi Tim, good morning!

No need for patience. This inquiry is in sync with everything else that is happening, so whatever timing, it's just right!!

Oh, good. I was starting to feel guilty for asking all those questions sequentially. Silly me :)

Responsibility is only possible after having come to recognize that life happens without a seperate entity. So after crossing the "Gate" is where responsibility starts, which is of different sort than the "ordinary" one.

I think I understand what you're saying here but these affirmations above strike me as a little strange.

What makes you say you have responsibilities?
Would you say horses have responsibilities?
Aren't you nature, like the horses (and everything else)?

Does this belief that the concept "responsibility" points to something true seem to create the illusion of a Tim that needs to do what Tim needs to do?

If this personal responsibility exists in your daily experience, can you give me an example or two of how you see this ordinary or extraordinary "responsibility" being exerted?

Big hug,
S

[Mohrtim]

Dear Sandra,

Please keep hitting that key, until you heard prefect resonance!!!

Having to put things into a different perspective is very valuable. It fine tunes the understanding. So responsibility isn't the right word. Hmmm, language just isn't enough to express this. Even in a desperate attempt to use the "....." to get more meaning.

Would you say horses have responsibilities?

Thx for bringing up horses. That's going to explaining it so much easier!

So, one cannot live by oneself! One always emanates "something" into ones environment. So horse innately regard (scan) the human, from a perspective of neutrality, with the purpose to establish if s/he is friend or foe. They determined that by the level of congruency the human emanates. This faculty of the equine is a gift when put to "use". Now, a horse doesn't "have" this gift, it "is" this gift!!! There is no personal participation of the horse in this action, it's just what the horse is!!

So switching to the human experience, hooking into yesterday's post, Sandra "rubbed" of on Tim, by the simple way of being something that Tim wasn't yet. The act of Sandra seeing, while both were looking, unabled Tim to see eventually.

So this "ability" of seeing, following the looking, is a gift that can be "shared". If Sandra wouldn't have it, Tim couldn't have received it.

So back to "some kind of responsibility", which isn't the right word!

Before one crosses the Gate, one influences the world just as much as after, with the exemption that the influence becomes conscious. By conscious I mean, that the very act of holding someone in ones regard has an influential impact. Disregarding or holding somebody in positive regard has a huge influence on the individual. One cannot be by one self, because one always regards the environment, knowingly or not.

So before the Gate no responsibility, because one doesn't even know, yet still influences just by being (regarding). Just after crossing the Gate "having" the gift to hold environment to a "higher" regards (since recognition that nobody has an I). So is that a responsibility?? In the ordinary way of looking at things yes, looking closer no, it's much more than that. Further along having this gift turns into being this gift, which puts one at the same level of he horses. No Responsibility at all, just Life as it is.

Hmmm, that turned out to be more in depth than you questions ask for?!

Tim