Seeking a guide

[Xain]

But on the other I acknowledge that there is somewhere where seeing is apparently being performed from. I recognise this 'somewhere' is not a 'real' Rosie, but it is a place from which seeing and experience is being performed/processed.

Don't let this worry you right now - It is enough to realise that any reference to a 'seer' is only in the content of thoughts.
It is possible later for an experiential 'shift' to realise that there is no distance to what is seen, what is heard, what is felt etc
(In buddhist terms, this is the sixth fetter).

But what do you mean by separate self? Is there only current experience or is there on some level acknowledgement that a body is processing experience?

This is just a confusion of words.
Many people believe that realising 'no self in control' will result in 'a self out of control' or a self 'operating by chance' . . . like a dice roll or something.
But you've got this anyway. I can see you already understand.

To suggest there is a self in control is only found in the content of thoughts appearing.

In my snow falling example, it is the content of thoughts that suggest 'snow is falling which is not controlled' and conversely 'this arm is moving which being controlled by ME'.
Without thoughts suggesting a difference in this way, there is no real difference between the two.
For want of a better expression, both are 'just happening'.

Beware of slipping into 'Nihilism' here. We are NOT suggesting 'I don't exist' or 'I am not in control'.
We can still communicate. We can still talk and think about an 'I' moving an arm (which is why I can ask you to raise one of your arms without denying such a thing is possible!)
We simply realise that the 'I' is entirely dependent on thought. There isn't a real 'I' (an inherent self) as we usually think there is.

Xain ♥

[RBL]

Hi Xain

Thank you for your reply. I feel much more accepting of this now. I feel I do get what you are pointing to. There was a moment of hesitation as to whether we were negating the acknowledgment of the body functioning as an entity separate from the seen, heard etc. I can engage with the idea that this notion of separation is entirely false as matter is just matter in existence..But at this stage I should stick with the current experience. It is enough that it is just happening.

We simply realise that the 'I' is entirely dependent on thought. There isn't a real 'I' (an inherent self) as we usually think there is.

Yes I see this. Rosie is made up of thoughts of Rosie. Without thoughts that Rosie does not exist. The body does still exist.

Rosie x

[Xain]

Yes. Great stuff, Rosie.

This guidance does not go into 'objects' - It's fine to hold the belief that objects exist in an inherent way (including the body usually referred to as 'me'); Although it may be worth knowing that this is an illusion that can be seen through both intellectually and experientially later on if wished.

We leave the guidance with the understanding that there is a body 'here'.
The suggesting that the body is 'me' is from thought (indeed, the suggestion that the body is NOT me is from thought too).
To suggest that the body is seeing, hearing, choosing, controlling, thinking etc is entirely from thought.

How does that sound to you? Is your realisation to this level?
Do you have any further questions?

Have you seen through the illusion?
Is there even a 'real' you to do so (if you can see the paradox here, then you probably have)?

Xain ♥

[RBL]

Thank you Xain. Thank you for all your guidance.

Yes I feel I see through the illusion, with the knowing, as you suggest, that there is no me to really see from.

The awareness stays with me through the days; that thought is the only construction of me, there is nothing else. When I stay with current experience and allow thoughts to come in and go out, things seem pretty simple really... not much to really fret about. Just a thought, then another thought, and the sensory experience.

All of this guidance will continue to trickle for some time I feel, and I will keep coming back to these posts to re read.

In some ways nothing has really changed...but in another way it could be said that there is nothing to change. Nothing can be changed it is just thought.

I am very grateful for all the time you have given me.

With love
Rosie

[Xain]

Hi Rosie

There are a further six questions I ask as part of this process.

Here are the first three of the six:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience and understanding. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference (if anything) from before you started this guidance with me?
Please report from the past few days.

Xain ♥

[RBL]

1)Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience and understanding. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference (if anything) from before you started this guidance with me?
Please report from the past few days.

Hi Xain

1)There is no separate entity known as self and there never has been. There is a body in the world, there is the experience of the world and there is thought.

2) The illusion of separate self is thought constructing an idea of who we are; our identity, habits and history. Thought creates a sense of solidity that there is a concrete being that we can always refer to as 'I'. I assume that this idea of self begins from the point when thought begins; when we start thinking of ourselves as a separate thing. The illusion of self is constructed only in thought. The assumption is that there is a central point from which experience is being processed; but this central point is constructed only in thought and does not exist in a tangible solid form.

3) To see the illusion of self is comforting. I can no longer blame my habits or my past for uncomfortable feelings... because there is nothing to blame. There is only thought; there is no tangled web that makes up me. Seeing this does make everything appear much simpler. I have viewed my son in a different way; I accept he is a being in the world experiencing it and that is it... no need to fear what he should or shouldn't be doing. There is not a huge difference before starting this guidance because in a way nothing has changed. But interactions with the world are different because I can see there is nothing to change and control.

Rosie x

[Xain]

That's a lovely reply, Rosie - Thank you.

Here are the final three questions:

4) Was there something you looked into or something I may have mentioned that made you fully realise - Was there a moment where you 'tipped over' into realising 'no self'?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control as you understand it now. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if you can.

6) Do you have anything further you would like to add?

Xain ♥

[RBL]

Hi Xain

4) Was there something you looked into or something I may have mentioned that made you fully realise - Was there a moment where you 'tipped over' into realising 'no self'?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control as you understand it now. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if you can.

6) Do you have anything further you would like to add?

4) I feel there was a 'o yes of course' moment when you mentioned all the aspects of the body that function without choice and control, like the heart beating. Although I knew this, I hadn't assimilated what this meant in terms of all aspects of the mind body functioning without the assumed choice and control of 'I'. There was also a significant moment during one of the exercises when I fully appreciated that the current experience is all I have to go on. When I was with the experience of one of the senses (I think it was hearing), I appreciated just how rich and detailed that experience is, and as i looked closer I realised it was everything and all that I could experience at that moment... The 'I' slipped away but because there was nothing to experience there and what I became aware of through listening was rich and immense and all that made up being in the world at that moment.

5) This body/ being is not responsible for anything; it functions in the world only. Part of that functioning is experiencing and interacting with the world. Through that interacting with the world intention and choice appear to happen, but this is entirely thought based. There is no central point from which choice and control are administered. A sense of choosing or being in control is just thought happening as part of the current experience. Right now I am writing this message on a computer. It appears that I am controlling my arms and body to type, and it also appears I made the initial choice to start and continue writing. However, there is no evidence to suggest there is a central point from which choice and control is arising. This is not to say that I am unable to stop writing or have no awareness of what I am doing; thought is being experienced and actions are being made. But it is clear this sense of choice and control exists only in thought and nowhere else.

6) I feel the considerations around choice, decision and intention have been the hardest for me as there feels like more for me to process and acknowledge relating to this. Overall all the exercises will continue to percolate day to day. Thank you for your time and guidance.

Rosie x

[Xain]

This body/ being is not responsible for anything; it functions in the world only. Part of that functioning is experiencing and interacting with the world.

Can you go into this a little more, please?

In what way is the body 'interacting with the world'?
I mean there are two possible ways I could take that.
The body APPEARS to interact with the world, sure. But you might be suggesting that the body itself has some sort of abilities OF ITSELF.
It is important for me to know that difference in your current beliefs between 1) 'It just happens' and 2) The body does it / The body makes it happen.
Does the body have inherent abilities?

This is not to say that I am unable to stop writing or have no awareness of what I am doing.
But it is clear this sense of choice and control exists only in thought and nowhere else.

Good. So at any time is there a 'real' you stopping something?

Earlier, it seemed that you were suggesting that the body is experiencing?
Is the body aware? Is the body experiencing?

Maybe take this as an exercise.
NOTE: There may appear to be distance between 'what is seen / what is heard' etc, in the senses and a point where the seeing/hearing is done (we don't address that right now, it can be addressed with some later examination). But I need you to be clear on 'no self' at this point.
Right now, is there anything separate that is aware?
Right now, is there anything separate that is experiencing?
What do you find?

Xain ♥

[RBL]

Hi Xain

In what way is the body 'interacting with the world'?
I mean there are two possible ways I could take that.
The body APPEARS to interact with the world, sure. But you might be suggesting that the body itself has some sort of abilities OF ITSELF.
It is important for me to know that difference in your current beliefs between 1) 'It just happens' and 2) The body does it / The body makes it happen.
Does the body have inherent abiliti

What I mean to say is the body interacts with the world by being influenced by the world. I feel my body does not have any ability of its own to function separate to the world; it is part of the world that interacts with and therefore exists and functions only in the interaction between world and it. Removed from the world the body / mind would cease to exist or function. There is no continuous conscious aspect to the body from which function is being controlled.

Right now, is there anything separate that is aware?
Right now, is there anything separate that is experiencing?
What do you find?

There is nothing separate that is aware or experiencing. There is the experience of the body or the current experience and there is thought. There is not a part of the body from which awareness is happening.

Rosie x

[Xain]

There is nothing separate that is aware or experiencing. There is the experience of the body or the current experience and there is thought. There is not a part of the body from which awareness is happening.

I noticed you said 'There is the experience of the body OR the current experience'.
Why do you mention these two things as separate items?
Isn't the experience of any object within the scope of the current experience?
Is the body a special case?

What I mean to say is the body interacts with the world by being influenced by the world.

Could you give an example, please, so I know what you mean?
Again, I just need to check your understanding.

The sun moves across the sky, and certain flowers and plants move and grow accordingly. In one way we could say that the flowers and plants interact and are influenced by what is happening in the world. We don't assume that flowers and plants have inherent intelligence to know what is going on and act accordingly. The entire process 'just happens'. Is that kind-of what you mean? Or something else?

I notice you say 'My body' - It's fine if you mean this as a description so I understand what you mean.
But is there anything that makes a certain object 'my body' and another object 'not my body'?

Xain ♥

[RBL]

Hi xain

Yes I see how my language is ambiguous. By saying body or current experience my intention was to suggest they were the same thing; just different words. As I understand it the current experience is experienced through the body, as in through seeing, hearing etc.

By saying the body is influenced by the world is to say hearing happens because there is something to hear (or not). What is seen through the eyes is what is in front of them. The body/ being/ 'I'/ this thing does not exist in isolation to the environment that is exerting influence on ..like gravity for example etc etc. Of course I mention gravity as a vague assumption made in thought...I am not suggesting it is in my experience.

When I've said my body.. I am suggesting 'my body' for the purposes of describing something.

Rosie

[Xain]

As I understand it the current experience is experienced through the body, as in through seeing, hearing etc.

So the body is experiencing?
The body is responsible for seeing and hearing?

What is seen through the eyes is what is in front of them.

Seen through the eyes? So the eyes are doing the seeing?

Xain ♥

[RBL]

No the body is not responsible for seeing and hearing. The body exists and seeing and hearing is happening. The eyes are not doing the seeing. The seeing is happening. But the eyes do exist and the body does exist, just as thought exists. There is no central point from where these functions happen. The body is a part of the current experience as there is the sensation of limbs moving and gurgling happening.

I see that it is incorrect to say the current experience is experienced through the body as that is suggesting those things are separate.

[Xain]

Examine a sensation, like we did in the exercise on 'feeling'.
Is there anything in the sensation itself (not a thought about it) that suggests "body" or any other label?

Xain ♥