Self-Control

[SwissKid]

(Confusion) Does it exist outside of thought?

Well, I had a question yesterday of a practical nature—it was a confusion of sorts. The thing is how does anybody live in the real world and have a conversation without ever using the words, I, ME, MY, MINE? This was confusing for me. So, I’m not sure if this is a confusion out of thought or some other sort of confusion? It’s a thought, right?

But is it seen that there is no I that has pain?
Body - pick that apart - Look at what is experienced here - images, memory, fragments of body included with whatever else is seen, lots of thought, sensations..... etc.
Identification with the body - does that also just happen? Do you choose when to and when not to identify?

There does not seem to be an I having the pain, INITIALLY. When it arises there are BODY PARTS having the pain. It seems to just arise like other sensations. Pain starts as SENSATION—OFTEN IT STOPS THERE as only a sensation and quickly goes away. When pain endures for more than a few seconds, or there is sharp pain, then fear, panic, wanting to take some curative action arises, so at this point I think there is an I trying to take action. If it STILL endures, then a kind of trauma/shock and RESIGNATION sets in, story and memories arise, and all kinds of emotions.

Are you still looking with the exercises we have been through?

Oh no! Oops! Was I supposed to continue doing the previous exercises? Okay! I’ll get on that and keep you posted—especially the body in mirror exercises.

Well, is the content actually real or a fabrication created by thought? Again - what can thought know outside of itself? Perception?

Thoughts are real because they do arise, often.
Content, which is the same as story, may or may not be real.
If a thought says, “There’s no Santa Clause.” That’s real.
If a thought says, “Santa Clause is standing behind you”. That’s not real.

Think of a radio - does the radio know what song will come next? Does it mind what song plays? So one song is a sad one, the next a funny one, next a hard core one..... etc. Sad song could be pain, funny one could be the body, hard core could be thoughts...... etc.
If not a radio then a mirror with reflections passing over the surface. Does the mirror mind? Does it prefer? Does it like or not like? Is it bothered?

Who's the radio in this exercise. Is it the not-me trying to be like a radio or a mirror? I'm not quite getting this.

Thanks Sarah,

Chris

[Sarah7]

Morning Chris

I had a question yesterday of a practical nature—it was a confusion of sorts. The thing is how does anybody live in the real world and have a conversation without ever using the words, I, ME, MY, MINE? This was confusing for me. So, I’m not sure if this is a confusion out of thought or some other sort of confusion? It’s a thought, right?

There is nothing wrong with using the words! I use them them all the time! Just like now! Lol.

You: There does not seem to be an I having the pain, INITIALLY. When it arises there are BODY PARTS having the pain. It seems to just arise like other sensations. Pain starts as SENSATION—OFTEN IT STOPS THERE as only a sensation and quickly goes away. When pain endures for more than a few seconds, or there is sharp pain, then fear, panic, wanting to take some curative action arises, so at this point I think there is an I trying to take action. If it STILL endures, then a kind of trauma/shock and RESIGNATION sets in, story and memories arise, and all kinds of emotions.

Me: my select tool has gone bonkers! Do you decide to go for the pain killers? Or does it just happen? Watch the process like a cat watching a mouse hole.
Do you bring the fear? Is the fear full of future thoughts and images? Is it full of story? Is the threat actually there right now? Are there expectations set into this pain?
Do you choose to identify with the body or not?

You: Thoughts are real because they do arise, often.
Content, which is the same as story, may or may not be real.
If a thought says, “There’s no Santa Clause.” That’s real.
If a thought says, “Santa Clause is standing behind you”. That’s not real.

Me: does a thought see? Does it hear? Or does it interpret? In which case how can you know what is real or not? I'm not saying it isn't real, I'm just asking how can you know?

You: Who's the radio in this exercise. Is it the not-me trying to be like a radio or a mirror? I'm not quite getting this.

Me: when noticing happens, what does it feel like? Can you try and describe the indescribable?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SwissKid]

Do you decide to go for the pain killers? Or does it just happen? Watch the process like a cat watching a mouse hole.
Do you bring the fear? Is the fear full of future thoughts and images? Is it full of story? Is the threat actually there right now? Are there expectations set into this pain?
Do you choose to identify with the body or not?

(LOOKING—PAST) Pill taking is sort of rare, thankfully. The last time I took a pain killer was after my experience in physical therapy, about two months ago. At the point when I couldn’t walk, there was so much pain, and I told my therapist, “I have a pill with me, I can take.” And then I took the pill. The whole experience was other-worldly, like I was in a dream, and everything slowed down, and it did feel like everything was happening TO me, NOT BY ME, then the decision to take the pill. The whole experience was like I wasn’t there at all. I was just watching it unfold, so I don’t think a self decided to do anything.

(LOOKING—TODAY) I stand up, pain arises as sensation—it arises clearly in the actual body parts, then (blank) no thoughts, then EXPLAINING THOUGHTS arises—explaining what is happening and waiting, next stretching/moving to relieve pain (“I’m” not DOING it), then pain subsides.

Relaxing, I start thinking about this exercise (sitting and without any pain). Sadness thoughts arises. Next, a lot of thinking. Reading your questions. Explaining thoughts start. Thoughts bring future expectations, no images. Thoughts are not full of detailed story. The threat is not here right now. I don’t choose to identify with the body.

The general sequence of events . . .
pain
no thoughts
waiting/watching
explaining
pain stops
sitting with no pain
lots of thoughts, emotions

There are more thoughts/content/emotions without pain or after pain than with the pain. I don’t know if I did what you asked—does this help?

Sarah: Does a thought see? Does it hear? Or does it interpret? In which case how can you know what is real or not? I'm not saying it isn't real, I'm just asking how can you know?

A thought does not see or hear. I think it interprets, so I can’t ever know what is real—yikes!

Sarah: Think of a radio - does the radio know what song will come next? Does it mind what song plays? So one song is a sad one, the next a funny one, next a hard core one..... etc. Sad song could be pain, funny one could be the body, hard core could be thoughts...... etc.
If not a radio then a mirror with reflections passing over the surface. Does the mirror mind? Does it prefer? Does it like or not like? Is it bothered?

No to your questions. I want to be a radio—it sounds so peaceful and pain-free. In truth, it is becoming more and more like this when I notice, thankfully. And reading what my experience of looking was today, I think even pain STARTS like the radio.

I'll be LOOKING in the mirror today.

Thanks Sarah,

Chris

[Sarah7]

Hey

I want to be a radio—it sounds so peaceful and pain-free.

Outside of thought - is there a problem? What sees a problem with right now? Always pushing for further for seeking for the next field...?

In truth, it is becoming more and more like this when I notice, thankfully. And reading what my experience of looking was today, I think even pain STARTS like the radio.

OK - get curious about noticing. What is it like there - when noticing happens?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SwissKid]

Hi Sarah,

Outside of thought - is there a problem? What sees a problem with right now? Always pushing for further for seeking for the next field...?

There is no problem outside of thought. What sees a problem with right now?—the self I guess that needs to do something, whatever comes up that needs doing. I heard a line in a movie yesterday, suggesting a proper way to live one's life. The line was, "All choices are the right choice. All outcomes are the right outcome." I liked that.

OK - get curious about noticing. What is it like there - when noticing happens?

It’s lovely sitting and just noticing when it’s quiet and I’m alone.

Things I’ve noticed this last month that didn’t use to happen . . .

sleep better - no panic attacks
watching crime dramas, I get nauseous at intense moments, and I get agitated
loss of short term memories, e.g rereading a book—seems like the words have changed.
peaceful states—much more often
life is more of an adventure—very cool
humming in ears, and sometimes I see and hear things that seemingly aren’t there—spooky
it’s easier to get along with people—easier to be present and really listen.
more and more I experience the world as unreal, like a movie
things don’t matter as much

Been trying to NOT SEE the body as my body in the mirror.
If I just sit and look (no mirror), like everyone else, I see my body minus the parts I can't see, like head, neck, back, etc. That experience feels much of the time like NOT MY BODY. Instead it's more like part of the total movie I'm seeing. But when I look in the mirror, it's still my body. It's RECOGNITION which must be thought.

Thanks Sarah,

Chris

[Sarah7]

Morning Chris

It’s lovely sitting and just noticing when it’s quiet and I’m alone.

And what does this feel like? You have mentioned what has happened or is happening there. So for instance is it spacious? Is it limited? Does this make sense?

sleep better - no panic attacks.........etc.

And what if this changes again? What then?

Been trying to NOT SEE the body as my body in the mirror.
If I just sit and look (no mirror), like everyone else, I see my body minus the parts I can't see, like head, neck, back, etc. That experience feels much of the time like NOT MY BODY. Instead it's more like part of the total movie I'm seeing. But when I look in the mirror, it's still my body. It's RECOGNITION which must be thought.

No need to NOT see. Just notice what is actually experienced!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SwissKid]

Sarah,

And what does this feel like? You have mentioned what has happened or is happening there. So for instance is it spacious? Is it limited? Does this make sense?

It is as I have described it, but if I'm describing, then I guess there is an I. It is neither spacious nor limited--it is somewhere in between. It is like a dreamworld. It is peaceful. It is interior--my interior. It is like being in a tunnel. It is happy. It feels unreal, confident, righteous, knowing, successful. I thought it was "IT/REALIZATION", but I guess it is not.

The sad truth is That's me! "I" explain and describe EVERY DAY to some invisible whomever. I describe. I talk to myself. I explain, like I'm some sort of important teacher who needs to teach me, somebody, everybody, anybody. I explain me. I explain life. I explain LU. I'm explaining to an empty room, to no one--mostly silently, sometimes out loud. I've always done this. I'm still doing it, only now I'm explaining "awakening". Aren't I the clever one!!!!! I, I, I. Clearly there is a healthy robust all-important self in the room, and it feels sad and hopeless.

And what if this changes again? What then?

I will seek harder, start all over again. Get online. Try to find answers. Doubt. Be confused.

I'm confused now. I thought I was doing well with our process here at LU. I don't think I'm doing this right. I'm not sure I know how.

Thanks Sarah,

Chris

[Sarah7]

Hi Chris

It is as I have described it, but if I'm describing, then I guess there is an I. It is neither spacious nor limited--it is somewhere in between. It is like a dreamworld. It is peaceful. It is interior--my interior. It is like being in a tunnel. It is happy. It feels unreal, confident, righteous, knowing, successful. I thought it was "IT/REALIZATION", but I guess it is not.

There is nothing wrong with explanation. It just needs to be seen that the word is not the experience. Like the word water is not water. Is that seen?

And is this happy tunnel accessible at anytime? Have a look.
Does it exclude any experience?
Does it reject any experience? Is it bothered by anything?

I will seek harder, start all over again. Get online. Try to find answers. Doubt. Be confused. I'm confused now. I thought I was doing well with our process here at LU. I don't think I'm doing this right. I'm not sure I know how.

And what says you aren't?
Is there an expectation that suffering won't happen? That emotions won't come and go? Is that why you are here to get rid of all the things you don't want to feel?
What wants this? Don't say I! Find the thing that wants the greener grassed field over there, because this can't be it, can never be it!
Outside of thought what is wrong with right now?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SwissKid]

Like the word water is not water. Is that seen?

I don't know the context in which you are asking this question, so I don't know why you are asking. I don't know where and when I am suggesting that I don't know, undoubtedly because I don't know. Here's my answer. The answer is extremely obvious. Of course a word is not the thing it's naming, but I don't seem to know the difference in our guiding process. So, NO, this is not seen.

And is this happy tunnel accessible at anytime? Have a look.

Happy tunnel is there if/when I am alone, quiet, no TV, computer, internet--just still. It is INTERMITTENTLY there when I read or hear or see something that resonates--things in the realm of insights or connectedness with people, or with events, with synchronicities, deja vu.

Does it exclude any experience?
Does it reject any experience? Is it bothered by anything?

I don't know. I don't understand the question.

And what says you aren't?

Because I'm confused about my day-to-day hit-n-miss responses and progress in our guiding. I'm not SEEING with conviction, or retaining insights in what I've learned--sort of like I forget what I've learned.

Is there an expectation that suffering won't happen? That emotions won't come and go? Is that why you are here to get rid of all the things you don't want to feel?

Two-part answer:
(1) Who wouldn't want all these things and more? What I'd like is an end to the incessant head chatter, and an end to the struggle to know deeply, to understand, and SEE the truth without doubt, not just explain it in my head. I want to be at peace.
(2) What I believe you are suggesting is that expectations stand in the way of liberation. I see that. How do I bury my expectations. That sounds a bit like trying to stop thinking--pretty hard to do.

What wants this? Don't say I! Find the thing that wants the greener grassed field over there, because this can't be it, can never be it!

I think you're looking for EXPECTATIONS here also. Maybe that's it, but it feels more like I'm eager to see road signs that tell me where we are in our guiding process. Am I on track, a lost cause, or am I having yet another False liberation because I'm living in the realm of the self and another thought-created sublime awakening. Or are there more scenarios I can't even begin to imagine.

Thanks Sarah,

Chris

[Sarah7]

Hi Chris

Happy tunnel is there if/when I am alone, quiet, no TV, computer, internet--just still. It is INTERMITTENTLY there when I read or hear or see something that resonates--things in the realm of insights or connectedness with people, or with events, with synchronicities, deja vu.

Ok see if there is ever a time when you can't access it. And when it's noticed see if it rejects any experience or is bothered by anything happening. I call it that which notices, not that it really matters what it's called. So when happy tunnel is seen to be experienced is anything rejected whilst it's happening? Does that make sense?

Because I'm confused about my day-to-day hit-n-miss responses and progress in our guiding. I'm not SEEING with conviction, or retaining insights in what I've learned--sort of like I forget what I've learned.

Is this all thought? What can thought know outside of itself?

What I believe you are suggesting is that expectations stand in the way of liberation. I see that. How do I bury my expectations. That sounds a bit like trying to stop thinking--pretty hard to do.

and

I think you're looking for EXPECTATIONS here also. Maybe that's it, but it feels more like I'm eager to see road signs that tell me where we are in our guiding process. Am I on track, a lost cause, or am I having yet another False liberation because I'm living in the realm of the self and another thought-created sublime awakening. Or are there more scenarios I can't even begin to imagine.

No need to bury, just see/notice them. Can't stop thinking happening! You tried that I think! Plus you have a thought wanting thought to stop, that's funny! :)
Are expectations always pushing you forward or further? Are they always suggesting that this isn't it? That this can't possibly be it?
What makes this not it? What is wrong with right now outside of thought?
And you are doing just fine!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SwissKid]

Ok see if there is ever a time when you can't access it. And when it's noticed see if it rejects any experience or is bothered by anything happening. I call it that which notices, not that it really matters what it's called. So when happy tunnel is seen to be experienced is anything rejected whilst it's happening? Does that make sense?

I won’t be around any people today to re-check/confirm, but I seem to remember recent events involving people, when thoughts, emotions, sensations (e.g. anger, anxiety, discomfort like cold and/or pain) arose, and then that which notices was not easily accessed. With strong focus, I think I could have accessed it.

When I’m alone, that which notices is readily available in varying depths.

DEEPEST LEVEL—Usually arrives when reading some spiritual insight. Everything stops. Visual perception changes. Seems like nobody is there—just space. The page I’m reading gets foggy around the edges. Totally no control or free will.There is incredible joy, bliss and no thought, no pain, lots of good warm sensations. It only happens OCCASIONALLY, and MOMENTARILY because thought comes in and it subsides to a lesser level of that which notices.

DEEP LEVEL—I can access this level all day long with little effort, unless I’m agitated in thought or emotions—but I still can access it, it just takes a little more effort. Seeing, hearing, sensations are there. Thoughts/emotions are flat. I don’t want to move or do anything. I feel sort of pinned to my chair in some way.

MODERATE LEVEL—This would be going downtown, around people and activities, thinking, emotions, sensations all there. Throughout the day feeling that which notices between thoughts, or when I intentionally try to access the experience. The more intense the day, the less access. So, thoughts, emotions, sensations are NOT flat.

( . . . re: thoughts about confusion and forgetting) Is this all thought? What can thought know outside of itself?

This is all thought, although I do seem to forget stuff a lot. Thought can't know anything outside of itself.

No need to bury, just see/notice them. Are expectations always pushing you forward or further? Are they always suggesting that this isn't it? That this can't possibly be it?
What makes this not it? What is wrong with right now outside of thought?

There’s no real list anymore, but there is intention to get at the truth, to be clear and stay clear, if that counts as expectation. I actually think this could be it, that this could possibly be it, or rather, it’s almost it, like I’m gazing over the cliff. Right now is great IF there's no thought.

Thanks Sarah,

Chris

[Sarah7]

Hey Chris

I won’t be around any people today to re-check/confirm,

Ok so when you can, see if there is ever a time when you can't access it. And when it's noticed see if it rejects any experience or is bothered by anything happening. I call it that which notices, not that it really matters what it's called. So when happy tunnel is seen to be experienced is anything rejected whilst it's happening?

There’s no real list anymore, but there is intention to get at the truth, to be clear and stay clear, if that counts as expectation. I actually think this could be it, that this could possibly be it, or rather, it’s almost it, like I’m gazing over the cliff. Right now is great IF there's no thought.

What muddies?
And when the truth is muddied, look. What is actually happening rTher than what is thought to be happening.
What is permanent? Look around.
Every time thought says this isn't it, or this shouldn't be happening, look
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SwissKid]

I won’t be around any people till WEDNESDAY to re-check/confirm

Ok so when you can, see if there is ever a time when you can't access it. And when it's noticed see if it rejects any experience or is bothered by anything happening. I call it that which notices, not that it really matters what it's called. So when happy tunnel is seen to be experienced is anything rejected whilst it's happening?

I don't know. I can't figure out how to answer this question. I tried all day. I don't know.

There’s no real list anymore, but there is intention to get at the truth, to be clear and stay clear, if that counts as expectation. I actually think this could be it, that this could possibly be it, or rather, it’s almost it, like I’m gazing over the cliff. Right now is great IF there's no thought.

What muddies?
And when the truth is muddied, look. What is actually happening rTher than what is thought to be happening.

I don't know. Thinking?

What is permanent? Look around.

Nothing is permanent.

Thanks Sarah,

Chris

[Sarah7]

Hi Chris

I don't know. I can't figure out how to answer this question. I tried all day. I don't know.

No worries. Just keep looking, when you can, see if there is ever a time when you can't access it. And when it's noticed see if it rejects any experience or is bothered by anything happening. I call it that which notices, not that it really matters what it's called. So when happy tunnel is seen to be experienced is anything rejected whilst it's happening? Take as long as needed. No rush.

Thinking?

Well when muddied happens look. What has made this seperation? What says this isn't it? What muddies? What is actually happening other than what is thought to be happening.

Nothing is permanent.

Indeed. See this movement. Watch it. Watch it with thoughts, sensations, emotions, identification with 'I'......etc.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SwissKid]

See if there is ever a time when you can't access that which notices.

YES, when in the throws of drama or pain or fear.

And when it's noticed see if it rejects any experience or is bothered by anything happening.

It rejects MY looking in direct experience for unity, wholeness. The seer is not the seen. It is bothered by ME and MY expectations and MY doubts.

So when happy tunnel is seen to be experienced is anything rejected whilst it's happening?

It is bothered by ME and MY expectations and MY doubts and MY thoughts.

Well when muddied happens look. What has made this separation? What says this isn't it? What muddies? What is actually happening other than what is thought to be happening.

1) ME, ME, ME and MY expectations, and MY doubts.
2) Direct experience—There is no unity. The seer is not the seen. The desire for seeking is still happening. Wholeness is not there.

I’ve been trying so hard to get rid of ME. ME refuses to leave. It doesn’t exist—never has. Why won’t it just go? I repeat what I know to be the truth about the ME over and over again in my head, every day--DUH!--me talking to me. Enough already!

See this movement [PERMANENCE]. Watch it. Watch it with thoughts, sensations, emotions,
identification with 'I'......etc.

I’ll do a bunch of this tomorrow, and report back.

Thanks Sarah,

Chris