Requesting Ghata as guide

[Ghata]

That sounds like a plan :)

[Ghata]

Hi Jeff,

how are you doing?

[JavaJeff]

Hello Ghata,

I am doing well. Thank you for asking.

I continue to focus on direct awareness of experience. My habit of turning to Facebook, or reading books, or watching videos, has been tough to break! I set aside one "meditation" session per day (about 30 minutes), in which I look at DE. Then at other times when I would have previously read my Kindle, I go sit and *look* at my Kindle, but do not open up a book in it, and instead just let DE arise and try to be with that. So it looks to others as if I am reading instead of just staring into empty space, which would be weird. The Jeff-unit has a strong desire to not be thought of as weird, so he takes precautions to prevent that.

It all seems to be slow going (or no going), but I am heartened by your recent video with Anthony, where you said that when you were working so hard on breaking the fetters, that it didn't appear as if anything was happening at all, until suddenly (out of the blue) the shift happened. I am determined to get through this. It might take a year - I don't know.

I have also had a few more moments like before, where it is clear to me that self is not behind any apparently volitional action. I don't recall the exact scenarios, but they keep happening.

[Ghata]

Great Determination, Jeff :-)

I have also had a few more moments like before, where it is clear to me that self is not behind any apparently volitional action. I don't recall the exact scenarios, but they keep happening.

Good! If there are moments when it is clear, that there is no self behind any apparently volitional action - what happens that it becomes unclear again? Do you stop knowing what was clearly seen?

Sending love,
Ghata

[JavaJeff]

What happens is that I fall into the old habit of allowing myself to become immersed in the content of thought again. This habit is very, very deeply ingrained. So, what typically happens is that (1) sensation or thought occurs; (2) a volitional action by the Jeff unit occurs in response; (3) a thought follows that "Wow! There was no self doing that."

But the problem is, when (3) occurs, it is as if ANOTHER thought is saying in the background, "I am the one realizing no-self right there." The realization of anatta gives rise to a thought of atta, the one who owns the anatta.

Confounding!

[Ghata]

Great seeing, Jeff!

Now find the self that is looking for the (absent) 'I'.

Sending love,
Ghata

[JavaJeff]

Great seeing, Jeff!

Now find the self that is looking for the (absent) 'I'.

Sending love,
Ghata

Haha, well played, Ghata. :-) The self that is looking for the absent "I" is itself just the contents of another thought. It is not real.

I just re-read our posts about where thoughts come from; and if there is an "I" thinking those thoughts. Page 1. I mostly still concur with my findings: thoughts arise by themselves, have content that is situational, but they reference each other, causing a "stream of thought" that meanders in unpredictable ways.

Even after all this time, I struggle with seeing thoughts as they arise, and to see from where they arise. They seem to arise from nothing, they persist, and then they fade back into nothing. The continual challenge is to recognize them as just thought, and not grab onto their content.

[Ghata]

Hi Jeff,

very good :-)

The continual challenge is to recognize them as just thought, and not grab onto their content.

Alright, let's see what this Content of thoughts is all about.

Close your eyes and imagine an orange lying on the table. Picture it in as much detail as possible. Do you see the pores? How is the Color, is the orange still green in some places?

Then pick it up. Feel the weight in your hand and smell it. Peel the orange the way you usually do. Can you feel the sticky juice on the fingers? Have a bite. How does it taste? Sweet, sour, a bit dry?

OPEN YOUR EYES

Where is the orange?

What does this say about thought content?

Sending love, Ghata

[JavaJeff]

Hi Jeff,

very good :-)

The continual challenge is to recognize them as just thought, and not grab onto their content.

Alright, let's see what this Content of thoughts is all about.

Close your eyes and imagine an orange lying on the table. Picture it in as much detail as possible. Do you see the pores? How is the Color, is the orange still green in some places?

Then pick it up. Feel the weight in your hand and smell it. Peel the orange the way you usually do. Can you feel the sticky juice on the fingers? Have a bite. How does it taste? Sweet, sour, a bit dry?

OPEN YOUR EYES

Where is the orange?

What does this say about thought content?

Sending love, Ghata

OK, I did this experiment.

I closed my eyes and pictured an orange. I could see its color and its shape. The skin is mostly orange but there are discolorations on it. I can see the navel.

I pick it up and can feel the heft, and weight, and texture. It is cool in my hand.

Raising it to the nose, I can smell the faint aroma. I bite into the skin to get the peeling going and immediately smell the odor of the pith; I can taste the bitterness of the white underskin; I can feel the stickiness in my hands.

When I open my eyes - there is no orange. I don't see it, I don't taste it, I don't smell it, I don't feel it. I can still access the thought that says that I can see/smell/taste/feel it though.

What this says about thought content is that it is not to be trusted!! One has to rely on direct experience. The only reason I was able to conjure up these thought-sensations in my mind was that I have had the ACTUAL experience in the past.

[Ghata]

Hi Jeff,

right. The mental Images, mental sense perceptions, all thought content exists only in cyber thought world.

What about the content of the thought "I"?

Do the same with the I.

Close your eyes. Imagine how it looks like. How is it dressed? Does it have weight? Can you touch it? Does it talk? Is a smell or taste connected to it?

OPEN YOUR EYES

Where is the "I" now?

Sending love,
Ghata

[JavaJeff]

Hi Jeff,

right. The mental Images, mental sense perceptions, all thought content exists only in cyber thought world.

What about the content of the thought "I"?

Do the same with the I.

Close your eyes. Imagine how it looks like. How is it dressed? Does it have weight? Can you touch it? Does it talk? Is a smell or taste connected to it?

OPEN YOUR EYES

Where is the "I" now?

Sending love,
Ghata

I can't imagine the "I." I can't imagine how it would look, because (a) it doesn't really exist, and even if it did, (b) it doesn't have a form; rather, it is a process that spans form/body/consciousness. So really, I can't even do the experiment. But I see where you are going with this! :=)

[Ghata]

Hi Jeff,

I can't imagine the "I." I can't imagine how it would look, because (a) it doesn't really exist,

Are you sure?

[JavaJeff]

Hi Jeff,

I can't imagine the "I." I can't imagine how it would look, because (a) it doesn't really exist,

Are you sure?

As sure as I am about anything. It is impossible to prove that something *doesn't* exist- I mean, Santa Claus *might* actually be real, but if so he is extremely quiet and a very good hider; no-one has ever seen him, and there is absolutely no evidence for his existence.

Same thing for the self. I have been looking very hard for a while. I have not found it. Each time I look and fail, that is stronger evidence for the self not existing.

[Ghata]

Hi Jeff,

if there is a separate self, an "I", it should be right there.

That it might exist though it cannot be found - well, logically that's possible but we are looking for experiential proof. Is there any proof for this hypothesis that the I might exist somewhere hidden? The "I" means an entity which sees, hears, touches, smells and tastes. An entity that makes decision, choices, exerts free will and is responsible for things. The "I" that moves the body, every little muscle that is necessary for a certain movement, and monitors continually what the body is doing.

What would be different if there wasn't an "I"? Would anything be missing?

Please imagine vividly, that all of a sudden it becomes totally clear that there is indeed no "I". Write everything that comes up down immediately, all feelings, thoughts and body sensations.

Sending love,
Ghata

[JavaJeff]

There is no "I" here, not in direct experience. Nothing that can be seen, heard, felt, tasted or smelled. [And even if there was - who is seeing it? who is hearing it?] The "entity" which makes decisions and exerts volition is simply the Jeff-unit...which is a very complicated, autonomous biological organism, but nothing more.

What is here in direct experience is seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling. And thinking. There is no I here doing all of that. And the lack of an "I" doesn't affect anything! Since the I was never here to begin with, how could the continuing lack of an "I" affect anything at all? Everything is the way it always has been.

When imagining that suddenly it becomes clear that there is no "I", I feel excitement ("Finally! Took you long enough!"). There is a feeling of sadness, as before (all alone here - nothing but this has ever happened, or will ever happen - and there's nobody here). Feelings of melancholy - the same sadness, a strong feeling of aloneness, but colored by the beauty and wonder that anything exists at all...it is incredible that all these "arisings" keep coming up out of apparently nowhere! And then *bloop* they're gone.