Confidence

[seihyun]

Before we go on to bodily movement, the belief 'I control the body', let's reflect for a moment.

We have been looking for an I which is supposed to exist.
To recap:
No I could be found doing seeing, seeing just seems to happen.
No I could be found doing hearing, hearing just seems to happen.
No I could be found doing feeling, feeling just seems to happen.
No I could be found doing thinking, thinking just seems to happen.
We haven't found an I so far.

The first line 'I feel agency over thoughts when I am aware of my thought'. A lot of I there!

You're right, the "I feel agency" is just another thought regarding a thought, thoughts arising to give thoughts validation. There is no I in thoughts, only thoughts and thoughts about thoughts.

[Florisness]

Good, let's move on to control.

As you are probably sitting now, stand up slowly, walk a couple steps and sit down again.
Look if you can find a controller/walker/I whatever doing the movements. Could you find anything?
Is there any evidence to suggest that there is something doing it?
Did you find any planner or whatever that was planning on how to do those things?
What do you think about all this?

Floris

[seihyun]

Look if you can find a controller/walker/I whatever doing the movements. Could you find anything?

There is no controller to be found. Movement just happens.

Is there any evidence to suggest that there is something doing it?

Nothing in AE.

Did you find any planner or whatever that was planning on how to do those things?

There was a thought about taking a few steps, however it was only a thought that arose, no planner.

What do you think about all this?

It is quite apparent now that things just happen. No real agency, just thoughts seem to need to label things and try to control things. There is no controller, just things happening.

[Florisness]

Great. Do you want to keep on inquiring, or are you without doubt that there is no I? If so, do you feel that something changed?
Your answers are a bit short, makes it a bit hard for me to see if there is remaining identification left:) Could you talk a bit about life or something, how you experience it?

F

[seihyun]

Would having no doubt at there being no I also be a thought that arises? Who is there to have no doubt..
I don't feel much has changed. Maybe it hasn't sunk in experientially.

I understand that there is nothing within perceptions that I can label as myself, with no self to be found how can there be other. This persisting feeling still arises that I exist somewhere, only to disappear when being observed, perhaps this is habitual and will take time for thoughts that grasp at objects to vanish completely. I am confident I have seen through the illusion of self, however I am not confident that the illusion will not return.

[Florisness]

Would having no doubt at there being no I also be a thought that arises? Who is there to have no doubt..

well seeing through the self isn't really about adding something extra like 'there is no I' to the already existing ideas and beliefs, but a falling away of the 'there is an I' belief.

I understand that there is nothing within perceptions that I can label as myself, with no self to be found how can there be other. This persisting feeling still arises that I exist somewhere, only to disappear when being observed, perhaps this is habitual and will take time for thoughts that grasp at objects to vanish completely. I am confident I have seen through the illusion of self, however I am not confident that the illusion will not return.

Can you describe what you mean with 'this persisting feeling still arises that I exist somewhere'? Is it a sensation, a thought? Yes after the seeing through the self doubts tend to come up for a while, but whenever that happens, you only have to look.

It could be that you still hold a subtle belief or idea. I'm just going to poke with a stick and see what comes up:
Could you talk about how things happen when there is no self?
Could you talk about responsibility?
How do you feel about there not being a self?

Floris

[Florisness]

Hello, are you doing okay?

[seihyun]

Hi Floris,

Apologies for the late response, I have been reading and considering your post, unfortunately I hadn't had the time to post a reply until now.

this persisting feeling still arises that I exist somewhere'? Is it a sensation, a thought?

Both a thought and a sensation, however whenever I observe them they are empty and dissipate.

Could you talk about how things happen when there is no self?

Things just seem to happen on their own, without any perceivable control or obvious cause. I don't think any self is required for things to happen.

Could you talk about responsibility?

How can there be responsibility when there is no individual. Responsibility seems to be a concept derived from the concept of individual, self and other. Responsibility implies a controller, however in AE I can find no trace of a controller of actions.

How do you feel about there not being a self?

Strangely, I don't think I really feel anything, everything makes sense however I suppose there must have been an expectation that I would have been shocked or surprised.

[Florisness]

Hello Seihyun, thank you for your answers! It seems that you are clear.

Strangely, I don't think I really feel anything, everything makes sense however I suppose there must have been an expectation that I would have been shocked or surprised.

Ha, yes I know what you mean! It's really not that big of a deal as we thought it was.

At the end we always ask some standard questions. You can take your time with them, answer the first three now and the other three later, whatever you want:)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


looking forward to your reply!

[seihyun]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no self, no I, not at in any way shape or form. There never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I suspect it occured as a child when learning concepts and language. I realize that duality is embedded in language and impossible to be without for language to have meaning. The separate self seems to be the habit of the mind jumping to label things as me and not me as self and as other. By realizing the illusion of the self Language becomes just a tool for communication, duality is also just a tool with no meaning in and of itself.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Theres no real difference in feeling, perhaps things have been a bit calmer. I don't really remember too well how I was feeling before this dialogue.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Going over all the questions and exercises again helped as the last push

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

A decision is a thought label to an deciding thought. There is no decider.

Intention is also a label to a intended action thought. There is no intender.

Free will does not exist, free will implies there is someone to have this thing called free will.

Without free will there is no choice.
Without free will and choice how can there be control.

There is no self to be reponsible and responsible for.

Things just happen, always have and always will. I'm not sure how things happen. Everything seems to be the cause of everything, however I dont think that question is that important.

6) Anything to add?

Thank you for taking the time and guiding me this far, very much appreciate it! :)




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[seihyun]

I suppose also, being the ultimate reality you could say we are responsible for everything

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[Florisness]

Thank you for your answers!:) Some of the other guides are looking at our topic too to see if they have some questions.

I suppose also, being the ultimate reality you could say we are responsible for everything

One of the guides asked if you could explain this further. Could it be that you are creating separation again by making such a statement?

Thank you for taking the time and guiding me this far, very much appreciate it! :)

You're welcome, thank you too for your honesty and willingness in this.

[seihyun]

I suppose also, being the ultimate reality you could say we are responsible for everything

There is no separation. Everything just is. If we are all part of that everything, we are ultimately the cause and result of everything.



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[Florisness]

Hello:)

There is no separation. Everything just is. If we are all part of that everything, we are ultimately the cause and result of everything.

1. Since there is no separation, who are the 'we'?
2. Responsibility infers control. Please describe in precise detail what it is exactly that is responsible for everything, and where it is located.
3. Can anyone/anything (subject) be found in DE anywhere, that can/is the cause of 'everything' (object/s).

[seihyun]

1. Since there is no separation, who are the 'we'?

We are everything and nothing.

2. Responsibility infers control. Please describe in precise detail what it is exactly that is responsible for everything, and where it is located.

I dont mean responsibility in the sense of the controller or a god. I mean that we are the same as the universe.

3. Can anyone/anything (subject) be found in DE anywhere, that can/is the cause of 'everything' (object/s).

Awareness is the condition of every experience. Who is aware? When looking for that which is aware it vanishes without a trace only awareness remains. Things happen however there is no separation, no objects or concepts outside of thoughts. No one or thing is the cause of everything. The conclusion i come to is that if there is no separate self to be found then i am everything, the universe, however "I" as an individual am no one.
Things are the cause of themselves in actual experience, as things just happen on their own. Thoughts arise on their own there is no thinker, thinking just happens.

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