Surrender

[Colour]

- The resistance is made of thoughts and sensations.
- No entity separate to the pain can be found. Just pain.
- Thanks for reminder about now...and now...and now. Can't be anything but now.
- No (sigh) Again, no I can be found when thoughts refer to one. That's always the answer to every bit of looking I have noticed.
- I will keep going back to looking over and over. Surely, it will grok soon that I am not!

Thanks Hannah xx


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[Hannah B-T]

Let's check a few areas again:

What is the possibility that when not actively 'looking' that a self appears and then disappears when looking? Like some sort of game of hide and seek?

If not, and it's 100% clear everytime looking happens that no entity self can be found, then what is still being looked for?
What is missing?
What remains unclear?

x

[Colour]

Let's check a few areas again:

What is the possibility that when not actively 'looking' that a self appears and then disappears when looking? Like some sort of game of hide and seek?

That possibility sounds pretty silly :)

If not, and it's 100% clear everytime looking happens that no entity self can be found, then what is still being looked for?

Great question. Pretty dumb and a waste of time.

What is missing?
So when I stop and look for a self there is never one found. In between those times I go on with my day still having I thoughts and feeling separate.

What remains unclear?
Why I still seek when I know nothing is there. Why I don't see everything is just one flow like other people say.

Xx

x

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[Hannah B-T]

In between those times I go on with my day still having I thoughts and feeling separate.

Is there an expectation that thoughts talking about an I will stop?
Lets get clear on the nature of these I containing thoughts. Let's compare the experience of these thoughts appearing to say, sounds appearing?

Can anything controlling the appearance of sounds be found?
Can anything separate hearing the sounds be found?
Can the nature of those sounds be altered?

Can anything controlling the thoughts referring to an 'i' be found?
Can anything separate experiencing those thoughts be found?
Can the content of these thoughts be altered?

So what would happen if say you were trying to work from home and there were persistent sounds of traffic or roadworks outside? If you couldn't blot them out, You'd eventually just tune them out and disregard them to get on with whatever needed doing, right?.

If I thoughts are seen just to be like these sounds, what is the point in bothering too much about them?

Re feeling separate. Many people consider this much deeper looking regarding a felt sense of 'i am the body' and examining the nature of an objective external world. If this is still feeling urgent to examine further, i'm happy to explore this with you more, but it's not the core of what is addressed here at LU (which is that the 'i' thoughts are assumed to be referring to an inherently existing entity/self).

[Colour]

In between those times I go on with my day still having I thoughts and feeling separate.

Is there an expectation that thoughts talking about an I will stop?

Yes, I thought maybe they would at least lessen and then when appearing I would remember it doesn't exist and kind of short circuit it.

Lets get clear on the nature of these I containing thoughts. Let's compare the experience of these thoughts appearing to say, sounds appearing?

Can anything controlling the appearance of sounds be found?
No
Can anything separate hearing the sounds be found?
No
Can the nature of those sounds be altered?
No

Can anything controlling the thoughts referring to an 'i' be found?
No
Can anything separate experiencing those thoughts be found?
I want to say this body, but I cannot prove it on looking.
Can the content of these thoughts be altered?
I wish they could, as I would not choose so many that arise!

So what would happen if say you were trying to work from home and there were persistent sounds of traffic or roadworks outside? If you couldn't blot them out, You'd eventually just tune them out and disregard them to get on with whatever needed doing, right?.
Yes

If I thoughts are seen just to be like these sounds, what is the point in bothering too much about them?
So is there any point in bothering about any thoughts that are not functional then?

Re feeling separate. Many people consider this much deeper looking regarding a felt sense of 'i am the body' and examining the nature of an objective external world. If this is still feeling urgent to examine further, i'm happy to explore this with you more, but it's not the core of what is addressed here at LU (which is that the 'i' thoughts are assumed to be referring to an inherently existing entity/self).

Well the body does seem to be the main obstacle for me. I wake up in the morning and the same body is here, albeit ageing and changing. I do not move around in my daughter's body or any one else's body, so it certainly feels like it is central to seeing and being in the world. Even if there is no self that can be found, there is a proximity point that is close.
Xx



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[Hannah B-T]

Well the body does seem to be the main obstacle for me. I wake up in the morning and the same body is here, albeit ageing and changing. I do not move around in my daughter's body or any one else's body, so it certainly feels like it is central to seeing and being in the world. Even if there is no self that can be found, there is a proximity point that is close.
Xx

Ok so let's go a little further with this.

I want you to get out some photos of you at different ages from babyhood to recent, and also have a mirror handy.
I want you to look carefully at the different photos and the image in the mirror.
Where is the 'you' in any of those images?
Looking at the pictures from childhood, does it even make real sense to say that is the same thing as what you are seeing in the mirror?.

Science says every cell in your body apart from the bones and teeth will have changed every 7 years or so. So looking at any pictures you have that are more that 7 years old, not really any cells are the same.

Remember back to being pregnant with your daughter. When did those cells stop being 'you' and start being 'your daughter'? At conception? 14 weeks in? at the birth?

When eating, when do those cells in the food stop being separate and become 'you'? When inside the mouth? the stomach? somewhere in the small intestine?


Then try this-

Sitting quietly either listen to general sounds around or put on some acoustic music. Close your eyes and take a look at this:

Is there a self 'here' hearing sounds separate and 'out there'? Is that the actual raw experience?
If there is, describe in detail the experience of the boundary where the sound stops and that which is hearing begins?

x

[Colour]

Ok so let's go a little further with this.

I want you to get out some photos of you at different ages from babyhood to recent, and also have a mirror handy.
I want you to look carefully at the different photos and the image in the mirror.
Where is the 'you' in any of those images?
-There are only thoughts, " that was me when I was --- years old."

Looking at the pictures from childhood, does it even make real sense to say that is the same thing as what you are seeing in the mirror?.
-No. The image in photo is the image in photo. The image in mirror is the image in the mirror.

Science says every cell in your body apart from the bones and teeth will have changed every 7 years or so. So looking at any pictures you have that are more that 7 years old, not really any cells are the same.

-I have never understood that saying. It would mean if every cell is renewed there should be no ageing or illness. I guess, the new cells could be rogues though.

Remember back to being pregnant with your daughter. When did those cells stop being 'you' and start being 'your daughter'? At conception? 14 weeks in? at the birth?

- I have no idea. I did not notice any time when I left and my daughter arrived.

When eating, when do those cells in the food stop being separate and become 'you'? When inside the mouth? the stomach? somewhere in the small intestine?

-If food is separate to me ( which you are now making me question ) I have no proof of when it becomes me. When I think of eating a lemon and salivate, but haven't eaten it. What is that?
This is hurting my brain as there seems to be no answer.


Then try this-

Sitting quietly either listen to general sounds around or put on some acoustic music. Close your eyes and take a look at this:

Is there a self 'here' hearing sounds separate and 'out there'? Is that the actual raw experience?
If there is, describe in detail the experience of the boundary where the sound stops and that which is hearing begins?

-No, there is no self here hearing sounds when I do that exercise. There is just hearing sounds.

x[/quote]



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[Hannah B-T]

There are only thoughts, " that was me when I was --- years old."

yes, a labeling process. Did the image in the mirror feel different to the images in the pictures? If so in what way?

No. The image in photo is the image in photo. The image in mirror is the image in the mirror.

That's not quite what I meant, I was talking about in usual language, your mother for instance would look at the picture of the child and say 'oh, there you are', and then look at you now as if both things she were seeing were the same thing.

I have never understood that saying. It would mean if every cell is renewed there should be no ageing or illness. I guess, the new cells could be rogues though.

No problem, just threw that in there for fun, let's stick to what can and can't be found right now :)

If food is separate to me ( which you are now making me question ) I have no proof of when it becomes me. When I think of eating a lemon and salivate, but haven't eaten it. What is that?
This is hurting my brain as there seems to be no answer.

These questions are just designed to start shaking up the usual way we think of 'i am this body', as something separate from life. There doesn't have to be a logical answer, that's ok.

No, there is no self here hearing sounds when I do that exercise. There is just hearing sounds.

Very clear.

Now i'd like you to go through all the major senses in turn the same way. actually take a look when that sense is fully operating (like taste when eating a meal)

Is there a smeller of smells separate to smell?
Is there a taster of tastes separate to taste?
Is there a feeler of sensation separate to sensation?
Is there a see-er of sights separate to seeing?

Taking the experience of thought (the experience of words and images but not the content of them)
Is there an experiencer of thought separate to thoughts?

Are any of those aspects less clear or take more concentrated looking?

xx

[Colour]

Now i'd like you to go through all the major senses in turn the same way. actually take a look when that sense is fully operating (like taste when eating a meal)

Is there a smeller of smells separate to smell?

No there is just smelling.

Is there a taster of tastes separate to taste?

No, there is just tasting.

Is there a feeler of sensation separate to sensation?
No, there is just sensation.

Is there a see-er of sights separate to seeing?

No, there is just seeing.

Taking the experience of thought (the experience of words and images but not the content of them)
Is there an experiencer of thought separate to thoughts?

This one was not clear. Thoughts images and words arise , but there was a feeling or something that feels like they are appearing to a me. Even though a me cannot be found.

Are any of those aspects less clear or take more concentrated looking?

Yes, the seeing. Because I needed my eyes open for that sense it felt more like it was coming from my eyes and the body.
And the thoughts... probably just habit but if I really look I can see they just appear and disappear like everything else.

Xx




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[Hannah B-T]

Great looking, thank you.

Yes seeing is often the most tricky to look into, it is the most intense sense, I mean even here at LU we use the metaphor 'LOOK!' rather than 'LISTEN' or 'SMELL' :)

Yes, the seeing. Because I needed my eyes open for that sense it felt more like it was coming from my eyes and the body.
And the thoughts... probably just habit but if I really look I can see they just appear and disappear like everything else.

Ok so keep checking these.
Are there any sensations, particularly around the head/face area creating the impression that seeing is coming from the eyes?

Go through the nature of thought in more detail again:

Is there anything making thoughts appear? Making them end?
Anything controlling the content of the thoughts as they arise?
And yes, keep checking if there is really anything separate from the thoughts and images experiencing them. If it genuinely seems as if there is, don't brush over it, really try to describe to me what that appears as, so we can investigate it further together.

And then putting all that has been looked at together, sit with this question for a little bit.

Is there a controller or experiencer of life, separate to life that can be found right now?

xx

[Colour]

Thanks Hannah.

Ok so keep checking these.
Are there any sensations, particularly around the head/face area creating the impression that seeing is coming from the eyes?
No there are not.


Go through the nature of thought in more detail again:

Is there anything making thoughts appear?
Sometimes I see images of potential happenings and thoughts comment on them. Or thoughts comment on previous thoughts. But really, they just appear from nowhere.

Making them end?

No, nothing can be found that makes thoughts end.

Anything controlling the content of the thoughts as they arise?
If someone is talking to me, or I am reading or studying that seems to control the content. But then thoughts unrelated to that will also appear.

And yes, keep checking if there is really anything separate from the thoughts and images experiencing them. If it genuinely seems as if there is, don't brush over it, really try to describe to me what that appears as, so we can investigate it further together.

Yes, there still feels like something separate is experiencing these thoughts and images. It still feels like this body is. There is a tightness in the head which makes it feel like it is coming from the brain. Sometimes when i look it is not there but when I am anxious and tired, then it seems like every thought is mine, and it is real and it is referring to the personality in this body.

And then putting all that has been looked at together, sit with this question for a little bit.

Is there a controller or experiencer of life, separate to life that can be found right now?

Ugh! I keep hearing words, " I am here. I am here." 'This sense of being is who I am."

xx[/quote]



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[Hannah B-T]

Yes, there still feels like something separate is experiencing these thoughts and images. It still feels like this body is.

ok no problem- and then you say this

There is a tightness in the head which makes it feel like it is coming from the brain.

let's look closer again at this conclusion and see what it's based on.

Is there any actual evidence outside of a thought saying so that that tightness sensation is 'coming from a brain'? If so describe what about the sensation itself says anything about a brain?

Yes, there still feels like something separate is experiencing these thoughts and images. It still feels like this body is.

ok so then is this a further conclusion- sensations around the head= brain= that is what is experiencing?
Or do you mean the whole body?
Or another particular part?

Go back with eyes closed to the 'feeler' experiment and get a good look at the raw experience labelled 'body'.
Body could be said to be a label for certain sensations, tactile and kinasthetic?

So if 'body' is experienced, how can it also be 'that which experiences'?

Are the thoughts and images separate to the tactile experience 'body'? If so what separates them?

every thought is mine, and it is real and it is referring to the personality in this body.

Do you mean the thought is real, i would agree that the experience of thought is as real as the experience labelled sight, sound, touch etc. What I think you mean here is in the moment the CONTENT, i.e the meaning seemingly conveyed by that thought taking about an I, is still believed.

Yep, that still can happen :)...until further looking happens and then it is seen through again.
It's almost like a magic spell, it's either operating, or it isn't. If it is, that's ok.
Now the tools are there to break the spell. And the more that way of inquiring 'beds in', the more default it becomes. Like installing new software :)

What exactly is the 'personality' you mention here. How would you describe what a personality is?

[Colour]

Is there any actual evidence outside of a thought saying so that that tightness sensation is 'coming from a brain'? If so describe what about the sensation itself says anything about a brain?

No there is no evidence.

Yes, there still feels like something separate is experiencing these thoughts and images. It still feels like this body is.

ok so then is this a further conclusion- sensations around the head= brain= that is what is experiencing?
Or do you mean the whole body?
Or another particular part?

Sometimes it feels like the sensations in the head and sometimes other body parts contain "me"


Go back with eyes closed to the 'feeler' experiment and get a good look at the raw experience labelled 'body'.
Body could be said to be a label for certain sensations, tactile and kinasthetic?
Yes. It is easy to do this experiment with eyes closed, but when eyes are open it is harder.

So if 'body' is experienced, how can it also be 'that which experiences'? Can't it experience and be experiencer? That is what is seems like. All one thing that contains the body but can also seem like the body. My experience is mostly that I am the body though.

Are the thoughts and images separate to the tactile experience 'body'? If so what separates them? I cannot find anything that separates them, but do not feel the oneness in that case.

every thought is mine, and it is real and it is referring to the personality in this body.

Do you mean the thought is real, i would agree that the experience of thought is as real as the experience labelled sight, sound, touch etc. What I think you mean here is in the moment the CONTENT, i.e the meaning seemingly conveyed by that thought taking about an I, is still believed.

Yep, that still can happen :)...until further looking happens and then it is seen through again.
It's almost like a magic spell, it's either operating, or it isn't. If it is, that's ok.
Now the tools are there to break the spell. And the more that way of inquiring 'beds in', the more default it becomes. Like installing new software :)

Yes, that is so true. It is like an old program or hypnotic spell. So I just need to keep looking and inquiring.

What exactly is the 'personality' you mention here. How would you describe what a personality is?[/quote]
What makes "Louise" accent, facial/body features/mannerisms, voice, tendencies, sense of humour, constitution, life story and preferences.


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[Hannah B-T]

Sorry for the delay, unexpected work issues came up, will reply tomorrow x

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[Colour]

No worries xx


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