Guide available - Breaking first fetter / Stream Entry / Emptiness of Self

[magicking27]

It has been a couple of.days since i have heard from you. Everything okay?

[Xain]

Hi

Sorry - I completely missed your reply - I wasn't given a notification.
I'll reply fully tomorrow.

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

No worries. I am sure it is easy to miss.

[Xain]

Okay, so what the mind likes to do here is to create a sensation of a whole-o-graph of an entire physical body shape- from head to toe. So that while there is awareness of touch at the "hand" there is also a whole body awareness.

Yes.
If I understand what you've found properly; We are so accustomed to the assumption that 'the body is doing the feeling' that our imagination (with eyes closed especially) presents us with an imagined body image overlayed on top of the sensation itself.
You may find that you 'go to' an imagined image of a hand and a desk and that is (in a way) 'Overlayed' on top of the sensation to give the impression of what is going on 'out there'.
But as you say, when you really examine it there is just 'sensation'.
No-doubt Monkey is saying 'There is my hand, on a desk - There are two things there - My hand is performing a function called 'feeling' and it is performing it on a desk - The desk is being felt'

So can you see that Monkey is generating the 'I'? 'I am feeling', 'This body (me) is feeling the outside world.

However, just considered as "feeling" this too is just one experience and does not have a process, a self or even a body. It is just "feeling."
The sense of shape or size requires a sort of visual sense, albeit an imaginary one. Just considered as feeling it is "one thing."

Yes, exactly.
This is great work!

I'll let you do the other weaker senses 'smell' and 'taste' if you wish to along the same lines. I usually miss them out.

So is it realised that right now, all there is is 'the current sight, 'the current sound', 'the current sensation (feeling)' etc
To suggest a body is responsible, or that an 'I' is responsible or ANYTHING separate is responsible for experiencing, feeling, hearing etc is just from the Monkey? (The Monkey now also including the imagination).
Without Monkey fooling us, we couldn't say that there is a separate self here (in relation to the senses - we'll go on to other stuff in a while).

How does that sound to you?

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

yes, the only evidence of a body or self at all is from the mind taking possession.

The sense of me or mine is completely from the mind.

Examining smell, it is a bit more complex because it is a part of breathing, which is a process, but considering just "what is smelled," there is no process and no person doing it. It is just what is smelled.

Taste is very simple. It is clearly just "what is tasted."

There is no I or person or process in any of the senses. Only the mind creates this sense of "I" or "mine."

[Xain]

Examining smell, it is a bit more complex because it is a part of breathing, which is a process, but considering just "what is smelled," there is no process and no person doing it. It is just what is smelled.

Excellent - Yes, the 'feeling' of the air passing in and out is often coupled with the sensation when examining it.
Notice the tendency to 'go to' a subtle mental image of the nose area as well (perhaps).

Anyway, let's press on.
Next thing to examine - Control and Choice.
Just follow along in exactly the same way as you have been doing - All the exercises are the same format and can be handled in the same way.

As you sit there, choose one of the hands, it doesn't matter which one.
Then when feel you wish to, raise that chosen hand into the air.

Do this mini-exercise as many times as you like and each time inquire:
1) What is causing the hand to rise into the air - What is making that happen - Can the causing agent be found?
2) Is there an 'I', a self, a Jason to be found that is making that happen - Making the muscles contract, and the arm to rise?

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

Sorry I didn't reapond yesterday. It has been really busy.

[quote]1) What is causing the hand to rise into the air - What is making that happen - Can the causing agent be found?
2) Is there an 'I', a self, a Jason to be found that is making that happen - Making the muscles contract, and the arm to rise?[quote]

1) no.

2) there is nothing making it happen. No self.

Weird.

[Xain]

Weird.

Isn't it! :)

If nothing is found making it happen, could 'I am making it happen' but just an idea - A belief?
Could the 'I' in the phrase be an assumption? Just something from thought?

How about choosing?
1) What is found that is choosing the hand - What is making that choice - Can the choosing agent be found?
2) Is there an 'I', a self, a Jason to be found that is choosing?
Is there a 'real' choice happening?

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

There is no real choice and no i or jason needed to make one. It just happens. The wgole thing is just a chain of events.

[Xain]

The whole thing is just a chain of events

When you did the exercise, did you find a chain of events occurring?

If an idea comes to you suggesting 'I am choosing' or 'I am making this body move' - What is your opinion of such thoughts?
Is the 'I' in these ideas something to be found? Or is it only 'an idea'.

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

When you did the exercise, did you find a chain of events occurring?

Perhaps misstated. Perhaps it would be better to say a "bunch of different" stuff is going on, rather than a "chain"

there are several different sensations
there are thoughts
there are things seen

there is no chain. That is just a word.

If an idea comes to you suggesting 'I am choosing' or 'I am making this body move' - What is your opinion of such thoughts?
Is the 'I' in these ideas something to be found? Or is it only 'an idea'.

No, there is no "I" in any of it. The thoughts that tend to come up are of a different character. They go something like, "Yes, there is no I in this. Xain suggested to do it, so there is no personal will in it." And further, "there is no will in any of it. It is all events with causes preceding back to the beginning of time..."

But I see through these thoughts as still trying hold onto some sort of "I" concept.

There is no "I" in it at all. It is just "choosing happening" and "body moving."

[magicking27]

Things are feeling different. Suddenly relaxation rather than tension.

It is clear. There is no entity called "Jason." It was always clear, but thoughts were saying, "No, no, look here, I am Jason."

Now it is clear. Early on, you stated...

The realisation doesn't change anything

But it has changed some feeling structures. There is a lightness where there was a heaviness before. Sludge is falling away. But I suppose this has nothing to do with the realization itself, just a release of certain thoughts, which aren't the realization.

Let's continue through the process to the end though. Fine toothed comb and all.

[magicking27]

Just checking in as you didn't comment or give another exercise yet. :-)

Still not managing to find a self anywhere. Freedom is feeling good. Still noticing tendencies toward craving and aversion, but they seem weak and toothless.

[Xain]

Hi Jason.
Sorry once more for the delay - I am still not getting responses from this thread saying you have replied.
Let's go over what you mentioned.

There is no chain. That is just a word.

It's OK - I know what you meant. I just had to check that a separate self wasn't lurking in 'the chain of events' somewhere ;-)

No, there is no "I" in any of it. The thoughts that tend to come up are of a different character. They go something like, "Yes, there is no I in this. Xain suggested to do it, so there is no personal will in it." And further, "there is no will in any of it. It is all events with causes preceding back to the beginning of time..."

But I see through these thoughts as still trying hold onto some sort of "I" concept.

Yes - Exactly. That was why I asked the question - Good that you've already established this yourself.
Notice how much of this is based on thought itself.

As for 'Xain suggested it' . . . I can't find a self here suggesting anything . . . just the idea of one.

So now we come to the monkey. ;-)
Give him a fresh Banana. Don't spank him.

All through the conversation we've been talking about thoughts and mind. Let's examine it.
I tie thoughts and imagination together. Thoughts are like 'the voice in the head' and imagination is the memory (or conjuring up) of visual experiences.

Exercise:
As you sit there, think a thought (or imagine something).

Now inquire
1) In 'thinking' (or imagining) is there anything else to be found other than the current thought or the current imagined image?
2) Can you find an activity of 'thinking' / 'imagining' being carried out? Or is there just 'the current thought' etc
3) What choice did you have to think or imagine what you did?
4) Is there any control AT ALL in thinking and imagining? What would have it?
4) Is there someone thinking or imagining here right now?

Xain ♥

[Xain]

Do you wish to continue?

Xain ♥