Anyone want to take a look?

[neeeel]

I haven't experienced any significant changes so far,

What changes are you expecting? Remember, this is not about altered states of consciousness, or eternal bliss. This is simply the realisation that there is no you, anywhere. Expectations can get in the way of seeing, can get in the way of realising that you are already seeing it.

I guess I'll just have to keep doing the exercise. It's strange though, to think that everything happens automatically, even the typing of this text.

It may be strange to think it, but is it true? That is why you need to look. Are you actively directing the typing? controlling each finger, each muscle while typing 50 words per minute? Look at everything you do throughout the day.

This line of thought is totally the opposite of what is taught in western magic - there's a well-known quote by Aleister Crowley, for example: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". I wonder if they are the two sides of the same coin, so to speak

I think I have some more work to do regarding thoughts - they often seem like the self when they are two or more levels removed from the physical senses. It's interesting though, that your method involves not just the sensations but thoughts and actions - I got the impression that it involved only the physical senses when I read Ruthless Truth.com, and some other posts here on Liberation Unleashed. "Literally just looking", etc.

Well, you could argue that thoughts are just another information stream, same as sound, sight, sensation.

Look at these thoughts that seem like the self. Are they special in some way? Are they the same as other thoughts, except with an "I" tag on them?
Can you stop your thoughts? If you are doing them, you should be able to stop doing them.

You are right, I tend to focus on thoughts more. "Just looking" is also a good exercise. Sit in a park, and just look at everything, see how real it is. Really focus on objects( its hard, I still tend to get pulled off into daydreams and fantasies, streams of thought), see how real, how solid they are, then look for the "I", the "self" and see if it is similarly real and solid. Watch how your thoughts label everything. Is the labelling happening automatically? Note how much time you spent lost in thought, and how much time you spend noticing the sights, sounds, and smells that are occuring right now. How much time do you spend in thoughts of past and future, how much time do you spend with what is happening right now? If there is a sudden loud noise , notice how your attention is drawn to it. focus on the sound, watch as it falls away and leaves silence.

So yeah, keep looking at actions throughout the day, see if you can find the "I" that is doing them
Keep looking at thoughts , not necessarily the content, but how they arise. Can you find what triggered them? was there something you saw or heard? Watch them arise and fall away, arise and fall away. Are you doing them?
And spend some time "just looking".

Let me know how you're doing

[xae214d5]

I did the exercises throughout the day, observing thoughts and "just looking or hearing". One thing I've noticed is that I still get thoughts like "I am doing this" or " I am thinking that" or "I did that this afternoon", which involve the concept of self.

If the self is involved in the thoughts themselves, that means I'm still under the illusion of self, yes? I mean, even if the thoughts themselves arise naturally, without the "self" being involved in generating them, if the "self" is in the content of the thoughts, then that means the "self" still exists?

Another thing is that, I sometimes lose focus while doing the exercises, and that leaves me in a state that could be described as "spaced out". That happens not only when I'm doing the exercises, but it makes me curious: usually when someone is focused or spaced out, the concept of the self tends to disappear.

For example, if you're in a boring class, you might wonder about the weather outside and think only about the weather, without the concpet of self being involved anywhere in the thoughts.

Another example, if you're playing a game of chess, and if you're focused on the game, you might only think about the strategies, again without the concept of self appearing anywhere.

Are above examples somewhat related to the no-self idea? I mean, it seems that in both cases, no-self is realized temporarily, in the sense that the "self" ceases to exist for a limited period of time, after which the ego returns. Is the "no-self" enlightenment similar to one of those states?

[neeeel]

Hey, sorry for the delay in replying

I did the exercises throughout the day, observing thoughts and "just looking or hearing". One thing I've noticed is that I still get thoughts like "I am doing this" or " I am thinking that" or "I did that this afternoon", which involve the concept of self.

"I", "self" is a useful concept for operating in the world. Dont worry about these self thoughts, they are going to come up whether "you" like it or not cos, guess what, "You" dont exist.

If the self is involved in the thoughts themselves, that means I'm still under the illusion of self, yes? I mean, even if the thoughts themselves arise naturally, without the "self" being involved in generating them, if the "self" is in the content of the thoughts, then that means the "self" still exists?

You can have thoughts of santa claus, does santa claus exist?
You can have thoughts of "I", does "I" exist?
The brain is (most likely) not going to stop thoughts of self. But what this process does is help you see through them. Each time a thought of self comes up, you can look at it, and see that there is no real actual self behind the thought.

Another thing is that, I sometimes lose focus while doing the exercises, and that leaves me in a state that could be described as "spaced out". That happens not only when I'm doing the exercises, but it makes me curious: usually when someone is focused or spaced out, the concept of the self tends to disappear.

For example, if you're in a boring class, you might wonder about the weather outside and think only about the weather, without the concpet of self being involved anywhere in the thoughts.

Another example, if you're playing a game of chess, and if you're focused on the game, you might only think about the strategies, again without the concept of self appearing anywhere.

Are above examples somewhat related to the no-self idea? I mean, it seems that in both cases, no-self is realized temporarily, in the sense that the "self" ceases to exist for a limited period of time, after which the ego returns. Is the "no-self" enlightenment similar to one of those states?

The examples you gave, of chess, and being in a boring class, are good examples of noticing when the self seems absent. This is what I have been pointing to, to get you to see that although you assume that you are in control and doing things, this is in fact not true.You need to see that its always like this, ie self is always absent.


The self doesnt cease to exist. It doesnt exist, it never has existed , it never will exist. We are not killing off some entity here, we are simply seeing that it has never existed ,ever. Thinking thoughts of "I" does not make the self suddenly real.

No-self does not mean the cessation of thoughts about "I". It does not mean you enter a certain mind state and stay there for ever. It is simply seeing that the belief currently held, that there is a separate self that is in control of thoughts and actions, is a false belief.

So, where are you in seeing that this belief is false? Do you see that actions are not controlled or directed by a "you" ? Do you see that thoughts and emotions are not controlled or directed by a "you"?

[neeeel]

Hey, are you still around, still looking at this?

[xae214d5]

Yes I'm still looking, sorry for the slow response. Good points regarding santa claus - I hadn't thought of it that way and it makes sense now.

One thing I was wondering about was the conscious, subconscious and unconscious minds. In psychology they say that a mind of made of those three parts, which makes me wonder which part(s) the "self" is made of?

So if the self is the conscious mind, then does that mean the unconscious mind exists, but not the conscious mind? Or is it like none of that exists?

One other thing I was wondering about was this: often, I make it a goal in my life to gain the ability to do something, rather than to just do it. For example, I might make it my goal to be able to shoot a target with a pistol at will, rather than simply wishing to hit the target. It's sort of like having a consious control over some part of my life. My question was, does that make any sense from the no-self point of view? If the consious mind doesn't exist, none of that seems to make sense :?

Finally, I'm thinking at the moment that my expectations for the phonomenon called "enlightenment" may have been too high, after reading this blog article:

http://alanchapman.me/ruthless-indirect ... or-grasp-o

I wonder what people here have to say about that - do you know if it's been discussed on this forum before?

[neeeel]

One thing I was wondering about was the conscious, subconscious and unconscious minds. In psychology they say that a mind of made of those three parts, which makes me wonder which part(s) the "self" is made of?

So if the self is the conscious mind, then does that mean the unconscious mind exists, but not the conscious mind? Or is it like none of that exists?

You are totally missing the point here, and going way off track. You can never see this by thinking your way to it. You can spend hours reading psychology books, having thought after thought about conscious, subconscious, and unconscious minds, and you are not 1 millimetre closer to seeing this.

Stop thinking, and start LOOKING

Get back to observing direct experience. Observe actions, observe thoughts ( not necessarily contents of thoughts, but the thoughts themselves). Observe how actions happen, observe if you are doing them, and if so , how you are doing them. Observe thoughts, are you doing them? Observe the thoughts about conscious and unconscious minds, watch how they arise and fall away, one following the other, endlessly, round and round. Is there a you that is thinking them?

In earlier posts you acknowledged that the only difference between conscious and unconscious actions was that in conscious actions, there is a thought( usually I am going to do x) followed by the action.
Keep looking at this. Is it true? Are "you" doing the thought, and thereby doing the action?

One other thing I was wondering about was this: often, I make it a goal in my life to gain the ability to do something, rather than to just do it. For example, I might make it my goal to be able to shoot a target with a pistol at will, rather than simply wishing to hit the target. It's sort of like having a consious control over some part of my life. My question was, does that make any sense from the no-self point of view? If the consious mind doesn't exist, none of that seems to make sense :?

Again, irrelevant. It doesnt matter if it makes sense from the no self point of view. The question is, is there a real actual separate self, or isnt there? And the only way to find out is to look.
You assume that there is a you that is creating the goals. So, look. Is there? Is the goal a thought of "I will shoot the target"? if so, are you thinking the thought? WHERE DOES THAT GOAL COME FROM? Does it just arise from somewhere? Can you find the you that is doing the willing, creating the goal, having conscious control?

Finally, I'm thinking at the moment that my expectations for the phonomenon called "enlightenment" may have been too high, after reading this blog article:

http://alanchapman.me/ruthless-indirect ... or-grasp-o

I wonder what people here have to say about that - do you know if it's been discussed on this forum before?

Irrelevant. And as I pointed out to you right at the start, this isnt enlightenment.


Stop endlessly thinking, go back to basics, and look at how actions and thoughts occur, in reality. Yes, you will probably get sidetracked and caught up in trains of thought, but remind yourself somehow to reset, and begin looking again. Read the whole thread again, look at your responses to the early exercises, and pick up where you left off.

[neeeel]

Are you having difficulties? Dont give up !