Per aspera ad astra

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

No, I have not been able to find am 'experiencer'

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Same as above, I have not been able to find a 'doer'

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Have not found 'decision-maker' either

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

No, thinking happens, no 'self' behind it.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Sort of, it is still unclear to me how the mind-body link works like for example in yoga, when certain postures directly impact your mind, and breathing helps to still the mind. body must also be some sort of energetic entity.

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

No the body senses happen as the daily life unfolds.

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No, this was very vivid through the experience in the park when everything felt 'one'.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Yes, it is understood that 'self' is a mental fabrication.

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

There is still some doubt in terms of this knowledge not being as much integrated into my daily life. The understanding is there but not sure how to really figure if this is getting infiltrated in my day to day life. Something feels different but not sure what.


Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

And thank you for answering those questions. Let's take a look at what you have written...

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?


Sort of, it is still unclear to me how the mind-body link works like for example in yoga, when certain postures directly impact your mind, and breathing helps to still the mind. body must also be some sort of energetic entity.

This is a kind of theory. An explanation of what must be going on in mechanical terms of separate entities. 'Mind' and 'Body' are labels that create the appearance of separations. is there an experience of 'a mind' being separate from 'a body'?

What is a sensation, for example? How is a sensation experienced?

Is there any separation found between 'mind', 'sensation' and 'body'? (other than thoughts that say there is separation)?

There is still some doubt in terms of this knowledge not being as much integrated into my daily life. The understanding is there but not sure how to really figure if this is getting infiltrated in my day to day life. Something feels different but not sure what.

Thank you for mentioning this.

It can seem that 'nothing has changed' or that 'things are still the same', including some problems that don't immediately 'go away'.

Did you expect to find an integration into daily life? how would that look?

Please tell me what feels different?


love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

This is a kind of theory. An explanation of what must be going on in mechanical terms of separate entities. 'Mind' and 'Body' are labels that create the appearance of separations. is there an experience of 'a mind' being separate from 'a body'?

I understand that all there is to the experience of the body and mind is the knowing or call it experiencing, so there isn't a difference. Still i don't to understand how by doing certain movements, or just having a relaxed body posture affects the clarity in the mind even though from the experiential point of you there is no separation between the two.

What is a sensation, for example? How is a sensation experienced?

Sensation is a sensory input from the touch i.e. warmth/cold/pain + a thought

Is there any separation found between 'mind', 'sensation' and 'body'? (other than thoughts that say there is separation)?

No separation is found.

Did you expect to find an integration into daily life? how would that look?

I guess i expected to experience less suffering caused by external events and more calm. There are still so many triggers which cause a stream of meaningless thoughts, there is still pain associated with not wanting to go to work. there is still judgment and a strong belief in a 'thought catcher' we discussed previously. also i somewhat wanted to feel adequate, having lived with a feeling of inadequacy all my life. I understand that there is no such thing as 'adequate' or 'inadequate' but the thoughts of wanting to be a different person/having a different life are so persistent.

Please tell me what feels different?

there are more reflective thoughts and a bit more 'space' between some external events and my reaction - i.e thought process and consequently - behavior. there also appears to be less 'guardedness', like there is no need to pretend or present a certain image.

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

I understand that all there is to the experience of the body and mind is the knowing or call it experiencing, so there isn't a difference. Still i don't to understand how by doing certain movements, or just having a relaxed body posture affects the clarity in the mind even though from the experiential point of you there is no separation between the two.

What do you infer from this?

This is a very interesting question and it goes to the root of belief in how there is 'a mind' that is 'contained' in 'a body'. Either or both of 'mind' or 'body' can be imagined to be 'me'. This is why we point to direct experience and ask:

What mind?

(There are lots and lots of theories about the origins or functioning of a thing/phenomenon labelled 'mind' that is supposed to be 'there', but is 'a mind' found in experience, any more than 'a self'? Take a look.)

What body?

Is an entity 'body', really 'there'? Look at the immediate experience. Do 'legs exist' when looking at the sky?

I guess i expected to experience less suffering caused by external events and more calm. There are still so many triggers which cause a stream of meaningless thoughts, there is still pain associated with not wanting to go to work. there is still judgment and a strong belief in a 'thought catcher' we discussed previously. also i somewhat wanted to feel adequate, having lived with a feeling of inadequacy all my life. I understand that there is no such thing as 'adequate' or 'inadequate' but the thoughts of wanting to be a different person/having a different life are so persistent.

This is understandable, to wish for a more pleasant experience and less painful one. But looking for that, expecting that to happen can be very frustrating, as it may not appear to order.

By the way, really look for this 'thought catcher'. Can you catch the thought catcher?

there are more reflective thoughts and a bit more 'space' between some external events and my reaction - i.e thought process and consequently - behavior. there also appears to be less 'guardedness', like there is no need to pretend or present a certain image.

This is good Agata. You have been doing well and now it's time to look and look at the things I have mentioned today. Don't leave it too long before posting back. We may be nearly there :-)


love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

What do you infer from this?

Maybe that the mind and body are one?

What mind? (There are lots and lots of theories about the origins or functioning of a thing/phenomenon labelled 'mind' that is supposed to be 'there', but is 'a mind' found in experience, any more than 'a self'? Take a look.)

It is a formless continuum that functions to perceive and understand objects (took this from online search). and thoughts/analysing/reasoning is a product of mind. why do children need to be talked to, developed, taught- so that they develop their mind and are able to understand the world around them. some people are journalists, politicians, businessman as their mind is 'sharp' , they have read a lot, studied a lot and that enabled them to work in these professions, argue, debate. And also why are we having this conversation, surely through these words somehow are reaching my mind.

What body? Is an entity 'body', really 'there'? Look at the immediate experience. Do 'legs exist' when looking at the sky?

I cant see my legs when i look at the sky but this just shows that my vision is limited- when i look in one direction, i can only see things which are within my vision radius. This just shows that our 5 senses are limited, but this is what we are + thoughts. So perhaps body is a sum of seeing, smelling, hearing, touching of it..

This is understandable, to wish for a more pleasant experience and less painful one. But looking for that, expecting that to happen can be very frustrating, as it may not appear to order.

Totally get that expectations aren't helpful, the best i can do is just notice the thoughts and not get carried away, which may sometimes happen anyway.. so i can be at peace with expectations when they do arise.

By the way, really look for this 'thought catcher'. Can you catch the thought catcher?

As thoughts come and go , the space arises randomly between the thoughts and reaction which i have defined as 'thought catcher'. it happens naturally so best thing is to be relaxed as the idea of certain 'self' that creates that space feels like its creating some unnecessary tension.

We may be nearly there :-)

Hope so :) still feels like a bit of a roller coaster but dropping the expectations as of what this process should feel/be like


Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

It's good that we are posting to each other daily at the moment. In these investigations they can reach a point where momentum is needed for a little while.

What do you infer from this?


Maybe that the mind and body are one?

When I look at experience it seems that mind and body are at least not two separate things.

It is a formless continuum that functions to perceive and understand objects (took this from online search). and thoughts/analysing/reasoning is a product of mind. why do children need to be talked to, developed, taught- so that they develop their mind and are able to understand the world around them. some people are journalists, politicians, businessman as their mind is 'sharp' , they have read a lot, studied a lot and that enabled them to work in these professions, argue, debate. And also why are we having this conversation, surely through these words somehow are reaching my mind.

Now, in the nicest and most gentle possible way I'm going to challenge you in over this. I asked you to LOOK at experience, not give me an explanation from an online search or the opinions of experts.

You are good at looking at immediate experience Agata. So right here and now where is 'mind'?

This is important. There can be a story of 'mind'. There can be studies of 'mind'.

There can be the idea of mind 'thinking', but what is the actual experience... 'a mind thinking' or simply, thoughts?

It's ok to look, in case there is any anxiety over this? Nothing awful will happen. This is not to deny the wondrous beauty of the apparent mind. It's possible to gently relax and take a look.

Like 'brain'. Sometimes people say 'it's the brain that is doing the seeing' or 'doing the thinking, or 'neurons'. But in looking directly, is there the experience of a brain...doing...thinking? Or is the only thing that can be found the thoughts appearing?

I cant see my legs when i look at the sky but this just shows that my vision is limited- when i look in one direction, i can only see things which are within my vision radius. This just shows that our 5 senses are limited, but this is what we are + thoughts. So perhaps body is a sum of seeing, smelling, hearing, touching of it..

OK. That's good. Body is sensation or, as you say, various sensations, tactile and kinesthetic.

You have described what can be found in experience at any moment, sensations + thoughts appearing. Is there anyone found 'being' this?


love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

You are good at looking at immediate experience Agata. So right here and now where is 'mind'?

It can not be found

There can be the idea of mind 'thinking', but what is the actual experience... 'a mind thinking' or simply, thoughts?

The actual experience is simply thoughts.

Like 'brain'. Sometimes people say 'it's the brain that is doing the seeing' or 'doing the thinking, or 'neurons'. But in looking directly, is there the experience of a brain...doing...thinking? Or is the only thing that can be found the thoughts appearing?

by looking directly i can only find the thoughts appearing..which means that mind is a concept and not an experience. however there are a lot of thoughts coming up which are contradicting/doubting the experience.. such us- 'i cant feel the blood circling around being pumped by my heart, or digestive system working so perhaps i can not experientially feel that there is a mind. i feel that to me it somewhat doesn't matter if there is a 'mind' as an entity or isn't as that is not going affect my actual experience of thoughts appearing.

You have described what can be found in experience at any moment, sensations + thoughts appearing. Is there anyone found 'being' this?

No, the actual experience is just sensations and thoughts.

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

by looking directly i can only find the thoughts appearing..which means that mind is a concept and not an experience. however there are a lot of thoughts coming up which are contradicting/doubting the experience.. such us- 'i cant feel the blood circling around being pumped by my heart, or digestive system working so perhaps i can not experientially feel that there is a mind. i feel that to me it somewhat doesn't matter if there is a 'mind' as an entity or isn't as that is not going affect my actual experience of thoughts appearing.

'Mind' or 'no mind', it doesn't matter. The only thing that could matter would be an identification with an idea of mind as an entity that is 'me'.

Look at your experience and let me know if there is a feeling that 'you' are 'your mind'.


love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

Look at your experience and let me know if there is a feeling that 'you' are 'your mind'

That is very interesting question. I don't think i can answer with a definite 'yes' or a 'no'. There are moments when 'mind' is really quiet and when the experience is just sensations of for instance warm water on my fingers from the washing up i just did. Then the thoughts start appearing for instance about the shopping I am about to do and temporarily there seems to be identification with the 'mind' as i go through the list of products , then some judgment creeps in that 'i' am really slow doing the chores and should harry up, and then thoughts quieten and there is an experience of hearing a keyboard from my house-mate's typing in the other room. Deep down there is a knowing that 'i' am not my mind, but looking at direct experience there is some sort of a feeling of identification with the mind which comes and goes. Hope this makes sense.

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

Deep down there is a knowing that 'i' am not my mind, but looking at direct experience there is some sort of a feeling of identification with the mind which comes and goes. Hope this makes sense.

If we are saying that 'mind' is 'thoughts that appear' then yes. Thoughts can definitely be seen appearing at various times. There is a direct experience of this.

But is there any immediate experience of the content of thoughts, what thoughts 'say'?

All those references and announcements and commentaries ABOUT anything and everything?

Is any of that stuff actually present as a reality that can be sensed?

love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

Sorry for my sloe response, i have some sort of the flue and have been feeling really rough to post a proper answer.

In a nutshell, thoughts are direct experience, but content of the thoughts is manufactured and may or may not be representative of the experiencing.

When i say- my housemates are messy then it may or may not be true, it is very subjective. The thoght us very much real but most of the content of the thought can be nonsense

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hello Agata,

It is my impression that though you haven't found 'self' in direct experience you may still believe that there is a 'thinker' that does thinking. Am I correct?

And also, a few days ago you were talking in terms of body possibly being some kind of entity.

What do you feel now about these things?

Love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

It is my impression that though you haven't found 'self' in direct experience you may still believe that there is a 'thinker' that does thinking. Am I correct?

Yes, that still might be the case. The belief in 'thinker' is so strong and embedded that it is not so easily dismantled. sometimes when thoughts come up they are seen just as thoughts and don't trigger the emotional reaction regarding the 'thinker' or their content. But since the content of 'thoughts' is similar most of the days, often belief is composed that there is in fact a 'thinker'.
There is also some sort of a need to understand the source of thought generation and if the belief which was held all my life is no longer true, there is a wanting to replace that belief with something else. Belief is just another thought isn't it though?
I guess there is some sort of yearning to understand how to live this life, since the thinker is not real who used to shape and guide our life - how do i live? And it is probably the 'thinker' who is asking these questions but still i'm not truly sure how to be at peace with this imaginary 'thinker', how to let go, and let go 'where'- into nothingness? Life happens 'thinker' or 'no thinker' but if there is no thinker who we have relied upon all these years, how do we shape our life? Its like all of the sudden i feel like a little baby again, everything that has been taught to us all these years isn't true. how to crawl, sit, relate to this world etc now? It feels daunting.

And also, a few days ago you were talking in terms of body possibly being some kind of entity.
What do you feel now about these things?

Direct experience of body being a sensory experience still contradict to what i feel about these things on daily basis. I am overdue to see my chiropractor who was on holiday so there has been a lot of pain and also flu. So i had to drink plenty of liquid, take medicine etc to make sure the body is recovering and can function as usual. Hence it still feels an entity which needs proper looking after.

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

I am so pleased that you wrote saying this. Thank you.

It may be worth asking the question 'do I want to push on with the investigation or not?' Even if the answer is 'no' at least one knows it and it isn't necessarily the end of the conversation. Some people do stop for a while and then come back when they feel more ready to go through with it.

But if the answer is 'yes' then we have to focus on these identifications, 'me' as 'thinker of thoughts' and 'me' as, possibly, 'my body'.

Bodily sensations, for example or thoughts do really turn up in experience.

But are 'you' the 'director of thoughts'? Look at this.

Are 'you' a victim of 'your body'?

I guess there is some sort of yearning to understand how to live this life, since the thinker is not real who used to shape and guide our life - how do i live?

Wonderful, clever and complex thoughts have always happened, but have these been because a 'self' created them?

Can a self be found thinking thoughts? ...No.

This does overthrow all the received learning about 'how things happen' and yes, it can seem suddenly like a very different version of life than the one we were imagining. Thoughts can protest about the 'impossibility' of this and the only solution is to look at what is really going on in direct experience.

But since the content of 'thoughts' is similar most of the days, often belief is composed that there is in fact a 'thinker'.

Yes, it can seem so...

if there is no thinker who we have relied upon all these years, how do we shape our life? Its like all of the sudden i feel like a little baby again, everything that has been taught to us all these years isn't true. how to crawl, sit, relate to this world etc now? It feels daunting.

Do not worry. Though you cannot find a self this does not mean that all ability to shape things or to live life fully will vansih. Why should it? Direct experience has shown you that no self is found, but still all these years all sorts of good things have happened and shape has been given to life, hasn't it?

It is a common misunderstanding about seeing no self that this must mean nothing can be achieved (because of an idea that there's no one to achieve it..).

Would you say that you have discovered that you are not what you thought you were?

love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

It may be worth asking the question 'do I want to push on with the investigation or not?'

I have had sort of love or hate relationship with this inquiry. There is still the feeling of unworthiness of being here at the forum,like i haven't done enough pre-work as opposed to other people here. I have carried on with it though during a break-up, house move, turbulent external circumstances and i can not justify dropping this investigation now, unless you strongly advice me to. You have a considerable experience of this process as opposed to 'me' and if you really think that a break will be good for me at this point than i will happily follow your advise. How do i determine if i am ready to carry on? It feels like the flood gate is open, i can handle, see the most uncomfortable feeling i have been suppressing- the discomfort of being me . And i have sort of come to terms that I might always live with this feeling and 'carry' it around with it like a heavy sack of potatoes .. and i am willing to wake up each morning and keep carrying that sack- some days its lighter, someday its heavier and some days it feels totally empty and carrying around it all my life has been worth it just for this one glimpse of an experience of a weightless sack.

But are 'you' the 'director of thoughts'? Look at this.

No, even looking at the paragraph i have written above to answer your first question- the thoughts are coming, some thought processes occurring an the writing happens.

Are 'you' a victim of 'your body'?

No, though body conditions can restrict/shape your outer life in terms of things you can or can not do/lifestyle you lead, there is this vast miraculous space inside which is free despite bodily conditions

Do not worry. Though you cannot find a self this does not mean that all ability to shape things or to live life fully will vansih. Why should it? Direct experience has shown you that no self is found, but still all these years all sorts of good things have happened and shape has been given to life, hasn't it

I think the 'issue' with discovering this is the fear of loss of the imaginary control we have over our lives and the not knowing where this ability to shape things/live our life is coming from.

Would you say that you have discovered that you are not what you thought you were?

I was going to say that I finally experienced who i thought i was not, but i can not experience what I am not. That leaves me to say that i can not discover that which i am not. My experience is already who i am, there can not be a different 'i' to what 'i' am experiencing now, to what 'i' have been experiencing all these years.

Love

Agata