Anyone want to take a look?

[neeeel]

This is all good stuff yes. Spend some more time over the next day or two watching how things happen, and how often you are in control , or how often you are absent, whenever you remember to.

1) When I willed my arm to raise, first I had the thought of raising it, and the rest seemed automatic. So, the way it seemed to me is that, it was my self having the thought, and the rest happened without the self being invovled as an active participant (it was only an observer). I'll post again if I notice any changes.

So, theres a self thats in charge, that has the thought, and then the body follows the orders?

Has there ever been times where a thought has popped into your head and you wondered "where did that come from"?

another exercise. Look around your room, try and be relaxed and not thinking about anything specifically. Look around at objects, and notice what thoughts appear. Can you find any links between an object you see, and a thought that occurs directly after the visual perception of the object?

[xae214d5]

This is all good stuff yes. Spend some more time over the next day or two watching how things happen, and how often you are in control , or how often you are absent, whenever you remember to.

Great thanks, I'll keep doing this exercise :]

So, theres a self thats in charge, that has the thought, and then the body follows the orders?

Has there ever been times where a thought has popped into your head and you wondered "where did that come from"?

Yes and yes. Usually I have the thought of doing something, in response to a previous event, so it seems like it's my self having a thought. For example, if I see a falling object coming in my direction, I may have the thought of avoiding the danger, then the thought of ducking or covering my head, and that leads to a physical action.

Random thoughts pop into my head all the time - remembering a scene that took place a long time ago, having the thought of going to some place for no apparent reason, etc.

another exercise. Look around your room, try and be relaxed and not thinking about anything specifically. Look around at objects, and notice what thoughts appear. Can you find any links between an object you see, and a thought that occurs directly after the visual perception of the object?

When I see an object, the first thing that comes to my mind is the thought of the object, like the concept representing that particular object. So if I see the cup, I see its visual representation, and then the concept of the "cup" comes up.

After that, related thoughts seem to occur - if I look at an umbrella, there's the thought of rain, looking at headphones leads to the thought of the music I heard recently, looking at the bottle of water makes me think about drinking it, etc.

It seems like these thoughts are related because they go together most of the time, umbrellas and rain, headphones and music, etc. Repetition, I guess?

[neeeel]

So, theres a self thats in charge, that has the thought, and then the body follows the orders?

Has there ever been times where a thought has popped into your head and you wondered "where did that come from"?

Yes and yes. Usually I have the thought of doing something, in response to a previous event, so it seems like it's my self having a thought. For example, if I see a falling object coming in my direction, I may have the thought of avoiding the danger, then the thought of ducking or covering my head, and that leads to a physical action.

But as I have pointed out, there are also times where the same actions are taken, but without thoughts about the action. Are the thoughts giving you control? Or is it that in both cases, the action is happening automatically, but sometimes there are thoughts about an "I" that is doing the action?
Again, I would ask you, how did you raise your arm? Really look, and see if you can see how you did it. what mechanism, what process did you use to control all the different muscles? If you did it, you must know how you did it.

When I see an object, the first thing that comes to my mind is the thought of the object, like the concept representing that particular object. So if I see the cup, I see its visual representation, and then the concept of the "cup" comes up.

After that, related thoughts seem to occur - if I look at an umbrella, there's the thought of rain, looking at headphones leads to the thought of the music I heard recently, looking at the bottle of water makes me think about drinking it, etc.

Ok, but what is happening? Is it that you are actively thinking the thoughts? or is it that they ( as with random thoughts you mentioned above) are just popping into your head? Is the only difference between these thoughts , and random thoughts , the fact that you can see what caused these thoughts?
Is it that you see an umbrella, and actively think, umbrella, rain. Or is it that the very stimuli of seeing an umbrella triggered the thoughts, without you doing anything? Thought following thought in a chain, each one triggering the next one. Whereas with a random thought, you dont perceive the stimuli which caused the thought, so it seems random and unexpected.

Can you predict your next thought? Can you stop thoughts coming? If you are actively thinking the thoughts, then you should be able to stop them, indefinitely?

Spend some time looking at thoughts. Not necessarily the content, but how they arise. See if you can find where ( or who) they come from. Is there a you that is doing them? Notice how aural and visual stimuli trigger certain thoughts.

[xae214d5]

But as I have pointed out, there are also times where the same actions are taken, but without thoughts about the action. Are the thoughts giving you control? Or is it that in both cases, the action is happening automatically, but sometimes there are thoughts about an "I" that is doing the action?

That seems plausible to me. I'm used to thinking in terms of cause in effect, so whenever there's an action preceded by a relevant thought, I tend to assume that the thought caused the action. But then adopting this view would have some consequences - no free will, for one thing? I know that I'm having this dialogue because I believe in the possibly of my self being nonexistent, but still, I'm definitely not used to thinking that everything happens automatically, that I cannot make any kind of change in the world..

Again, I would ask you, how did you raise your arm? Really look, and see if you can see how you did it. what mechanism, what process did you use to control all the different muscles? If you did it, you must know how you did it.

I still cannot directly observe how the muscles are involved, and now that we've been talking about things happening automatically, it seems like the arm raises itself, hmm. The thought of raising the arm occurs, and the arm simply goes up

Ok, but what is happening? Is it that you are actively thinking the thoughts? or is it that they ( as with random thoughts you mentioned above) are just popping into your head? Is the only difference between these thoughts , and random thoughts , the fact that you can see what caused these thoughts?
Is it that you see an umbrella, and actively think, umbrella, rain. Or is it that the very stimuli of seeing an umbrella triggered the thoughts, without you doing anything? Thought following thought in a chain, each one triggering the next one. Whereas with a random thought, you dont perceive the stimuli which caused the thought, so it seems random and unexpected.

Yes that makes sense to me, intellectually, that the thoughts just occur without my self generating them. Although, that would stretch the definition of "thought", because a "thought" is something that occurs in a mind, and to me anyway, that mind is the self. I have a feeling that I'm getting off the track here

Can you predict your next thought? Can you stop thoughts coming? If you are actively thinking the thoughts, then you should be able to stop them, indefinitely?

Spend some time looking at thoughts. Not necessarily the content, but how they arise. See if you can find where ( or who) they come from. Is there a you that is doing them? Notice how aural and visual stimuli trigger certain thoughts.

Random thoughts indeed pop up all the time. Now I'm getting used to viewing my "self" as an observer of thoughts, rather than the generator of the thoughts. For example, a piece of music is playing in my head now, and I have no idea where that came from. I'll keep doing the exercise..

[neeeel]

That seems plausible to me.

I want to say that, although my method of pointing is quite logical, as this is how I saw it, and how my guiding tends to be, seeing this isnt about what is plausible. To really get it, you have to see it, rather than deduce it. So you really need to look and see if its true. Otherwise its just an intellectual understanding.

I'm used to thinking in terms of cause in effect, so whenever there's an action preceded by a relevant thought, I tend to assume that the thought caused the action. But then adopting this view would have some consequences - no free will, for one thing? I know that I'm having this dialogue because I believe in the possibly of my self being nonexistent, but still, I'm definitely not used to thinking that everything happens automatically, that I cannot make any kind of change in the world..

The thought can be assumed to cause the action, but is there a you that is doing the thought? Or is the thought just an automatic reaction to a previous thought, or a previous cause? Are "You" the cause of the action?

Yes that makes sense to me, intellectually, that the thoughts just occur without my self generating them. Although, that would stretch the definition of "thought", because a "thought" is something that occurs in a mind, and to me anyway, that mind is the self. I have a feeling that I'm getting off the track here

Ok it makes sense intellectually, but is it true? That is the important thing. And to find that out, you need to look. So, spend as much time as you can, watching how thoughts arise and fall away. See if you can find the you that is thinking them. See if you can find the stimuli which caused them. Note when they are random seemingly uncaused thoughts.

Random thoughts indeed pop up all the time. Now I'm getting used to viewing my "self" as an observer of thoughts, rather than the generator of the thoughts. For example, a piece of music is playing in my head now, and I have no idea where that came from. I'll keep doing the exercise..

Its not really a matter of viewing your "self " as an observer. Remember, if there is no self, then there is no self anywhere. none. In any way, shape or form.

You are doing well, making progress. Keep up with the looking. I have pointed out a few things for investigation, anomalies in what you believe, and what actually occurs in reality. Its down to you to spend the time looking, and seeing if its true. You need to find out for yourself.

[xae214d5]

Hi Neeeel, thanks for doing this. I did the exercise while I was offline, using finger clicking instead of arm raising.

So I would make a clicking sound by hitting the middle finger on the palm, and it would go like

the thought occurs to make the clicking sound -> the actual click

It's like more instantaneous than the arm raising, because it takes less time to click a finger than to raise an arm.

At first I would think, should I click the finger now, or now, or now.. ok now, and then the click would happen. However, after doing that for 10 or 20 minutes, it began to seem like the thought of making the clicking sound and the actual click occurred at exactly the same time. So it seemed like they happened in parallel, rather than one after the other.

Is that a sign of progress, or is it like an illusion? Also, I noticed that when I kept doing it for long enough, it would happen automatically, but I supposed that was to be expected, sort of like how I can walk without thinking.

As for "self" itself, I wasn't able to detect it directly, and I guess I've never been able to. For me it's like an assumption, sort of like imagining that there's an object because I see its shadow.

[neeeel]

Hi, sorry for the delay in replying, have been busy this weekend.

Hi Neeeel, thanks for doing this. I did the exercise while I was offline, using finger clicking instead of arm raising.

So I would make a clicking sound by hitting the middle finger on the palm, and it would go like

the thought occurs to make the clicking sound -> the actual click

It's like more instantaneous than the arm raising, because it takes less time to click a finger than to raise an arm.

At first I would think, should I click the finger now, or now, or now.. ok now, and then the click would happen. However, after doing that for 10 or 20 minutes, it began to seem like the thought of making the clicking sound and the actual click occurred at exactly the same time. So it seemed like they happened in parallel, rather than one after the other.

Is that a sign of progress, or is it like an illusion? Also, I noticed that when I kept doing it for long enough, it would happen automatically, but I supposed that was to be expected, sort of like how I can walk without thinking.

Its good that you are trying out different things. The good thing is, any activity can be used to test out no self. I am not sure if its progress or illusion, but all looking at reality is worthwhile.
What I am trying to point you in the direction of , is that you think you are in control, but , there are times when you "go away" so to speak, but stuff still happens. I am trying to get you to look at the difference between the times when actions happen , and you are "doing" them, and the times when actions happen, and they are automatic. You answered this previously, but just to get it fresh in your mind again, what is the difference between these two scenarios? what is the difference between you being "in control", and you being on "automatic"?

As for "self" itself, I wasn't able to detect it directly, and I guess I've never been able to. For me it's like an assumption, sort of like imagining that there's an object because I see its shadow.

Ok, you see its shadow. Can you explain a bit more? What is it you see exactly?

[xae214d5]

What I am trying to point you in the direction of , is that you think you are in control, but , there are times when you "go away" so to speak, but stuff still happens. I am trying to get you to look at the difference between the times when actions happen , and you are "doing" them, and the times when actions happen, and they are automatic. You answered this previously, but just to get it fresh in your mind again, what is the difference between these two scenarios? what is the difference between you being "in control", and you being on "automatic"?

Yes, it's like when I think I'm doing it, it seems like I'm in control, and when I'm not thinking, it's automatic. This kind of goes back to where I was in the beginning - I understand intellectually that there's no difference, but no insight.

Another thing is that, if I think I've had control over something before, I tend to assume that I have control over it even when it's acting automatically. For example, I know that I've had control over my legs previously, so even when walking is happening automatically, I assume that I can have control over it if I pay attention to it.

Ok, you see its shadow. Can you explain a bit more? What is it you see exactly?

For me, this is like a linguistic problem. Regarding visual sight, for example, there's the experience of an object being seen, so I assume that there's something seeing it, which is the self. Maybe I'm working at the wrong level?

[neeeel]

Yes, it's like when I think I'm doing it, it seems like I'm in control, and when I'm not thinking, it's automatic. This kind of goes back to where I was in the beginning - I understand intellectually that there's no difference, but no insight.

Ok, but when you look at what is happening, do you see clearly that the only difference between being in control, and on automatic, is that in one, there are thoughts of being in control. Ie, that
1) being in control = automatic action + thoughts of being in control
2) being on automatic = automatic action

For me, this is like a linguistic problem. Regarding visual sight, for example, there's the experience of an object being seen, so I assume that there's something seeing it, which is the self. Maybe I'm working at the wrong level?

This is a good thing to look at. Challenge the assumption. Is it true that there is an experiencer? Take some time to look at how sights, sounds arise and fall away, and see if you can find the thing that experiences.

[xae214d5]

Ok, but when you look at what is happening, do you see clearly that the only difference between being in control, and on automatic, is that in one, there are thoughts of being in control. Ie, that
1) being in control = automatic action + thoughts of being in control
2) being on automatic = automatic action

Yes, I think I see this pretty clearly. When I'm doing an exercise like arm raising, I see that everything is automatic, the only difference being whether or not the thoughts of being in control are there.

When I'm not doing the exercise though, I tend not to see this, I tend to assume the existence of a self, because I'm more used to that way of thinking. The no-self way of being is not intuitive to me, so it takes effort to see things that way, even though it becomes clear when I focus.

This is a good thing to look at. Challenge the assumption. Is it true that there is an experiencer? Take some time to look at how sights, sounds arise and fall away, and see if you can find the thing that experiences.

When I do this exercise, sometimes I get a euphoric feeling, similar to the "bliss" state I get into while doing meditation. I become more relaxed and start to have less thoughts about what I'm doing. Sort of like switching from a video game to a movie, which involves less interaction.

Regarding the "experiencer", I'm not sure what to say.. it seems as if I haven't gotten anywhere on this, i.e. intellectual understanding but no insight.

[neeeel]

Yes, I think I see this pretty clearly. When I'm doing an exercise like arm raising, I see that everything is automatic, the only difference being whether or not the thoughts of being in control are there.

When I'm not doing the exercise though, I tend not to see this, I tend to assume the existence of a self, because I'm more used to that way of thinking. The no-self way of being is not intuitive to me, so it takes effort to see things that way, even though it becomes clear when I focus.

Ok good. So, you need to spend time throughout the day, whenever you remember, looking at any and all activities that happen, and see if you are doing them, or if they are all on automatic. Talking, walking, eating, cooking, writing, typing, whatever. Look whenever you can, and see if you can spot the "I" thoughts that go along with the action. Are they you? Are they the thing thats giving control?

Which brings up another question. Are you your thoughts? Are you doing your thoughts? or are they automatic, like everything else? When you look, can you find the thinker of thoughts? Do thoughts seem to just rise up and fall away? Can you predict your next thought? Do random thoughts sometimes pop into your head and you go "where did that come from?"

As well as looking at actions, look at thoughts throughout the day, whenever you remember. Its ok if you get lost in them, whenever you notice it, just start looking again.

Remember, there is no you doing this, so all your old thinking patterns, all your old habits, are still there, still on automatic. The organism is now training itself to see through the conditioning, to notice things that it didnt notice before because it was full of assumptions and beliefs. So dont get discouraged if you arent always seeing things clearly. You can even use the discouraged feelings to look , to see if there is anyone doing the feelings, to see if there is anyone feeling the feelings, or if they are just there, whether "you" like it or not.

When I do this exercise, sometimes I get a euphoric feeling, similar to the "bliss" state I get into while doing meditation. I become more relaxed and start to have less thoughts about what I'm doing. Sort of like switching from a video game to a movie, which involves less interaction.

Regarding the "experiencer", I'm not sure what to say.. it seems as if I haven't gotten anywhere on this, i.e. intellectual understanding but no insight.

Yes, its tricky, and an easy trap to fall into, we can set it aside for now and just concentrate on looking at actions and thoughts

[xae214d5]

Ok good. So, you need to spend time throughout the day, whenever you remember, looking at any and all activities that happen, and see if you are doing them, or if they are all on automatic. Talking, walking, eating, cooking, writing, typing, whatever. Look whenever you can, and see if you can spot the "I" thoughts that go along with the action. Are they you? Are they the thing thats giving control?

Which brings up another question. Are you your thoughts? Are you doing your thoughts? or are they automatic, like everything else? When you look, can you find the thinker of thoughts? Do thoughts seem to just rise up and fall away? Can you predict your next thought? Do random thoughts sometimes pop into your head and you go "where did that come from?"

Yes, random thoughts do pop up, and in a way, all thoughts seem to arise out of nothing. One thing I've noticed is that, when there's a thought, there's sometimes a thought about the first thought, and the second thought seems like the self.

So for example, if I have the thought of walking, then there's the thought of thinking about walking, and that thought seems like the self. But in general, all thoughts seem automatic, just like sight and hearing.

As well as looking at actions, look at thoughts throughout the day, whenever you remember. Its ok if you get lost in them, whenever you notice it, just start looking again.

Remember, there is no you doing this, so all your old thinking patterns, all your old habits, are still there, still on automatic. The organism is now training itself to see through the conditioning, to notice things that it didnt notice before because it was full of assumptions and beliefs. So dont get discouraged if you arent always seeing things clearly. You can even use the discouraged feelings to look , to see if there is anyone doing the feelings, to see if there is anyone feeling the feelings, or if they are just there, whether "you" like it or not.

Interesting, hadn't thought of it that way.. I have a question: when you realize that there's no self, is it always like a momentary thing, i.e. you keep practicing, and at one moment, there's a click, you go over the edge, and no-self becomes evident? Or is it sometimes a gradual thing, you keep practicing and get there eventually?

[xae214d5]

So for example, if I have the thought of walking, then there's the thought of thinking about walking, and that thought seems like the self. But in general, all thoughts seem automatic, just like sight and hearing.

More precisely it's like, "if there's the thought of walking, then there's the thought of thinking about walking, and.."

[neeeel]

Yes, random thoughts do pop up, and in a way, all thoughts seem to arise out of nothing. One thing I've noticed is that, when there's a thought, there's sometimes a thought about the first thought, and the second thought seems like the self.

So for example, if I have the thought of walking, then there's the thought of thinking about walking, and that thought seems like the self. But in general, all thoughts seem automatic, just like sight and hearing.

Yes, good noticing. When you look closely , thoughts just happen. And yes, theres the thought about the thought, so its now like you are two stages removed from direct experience. Theres all the info coming in through the senses, this info is triggering thoughts, which trigger thoughts about thoughts, and you are not paying attention to the direct experience because you believe that you are the thoughts, and you believe the content of the thoughts.

Interesting, hadn't thought of it that way.. I have a question: when you realize that there's no self, is it always like a momentary thing, i.e. you keep practicing, and at one moment, there's a click, you go over the edge, and no-self becomes evident? Or is it sometimes a gradual thing, you keep practicing and get there eventually?

I think it differs for different people, and how clearly they see it. For some people its like BAM! and a huge amount of their conditioning and patterns are blasted away. For me its a constant looking, getting caught up in patterns, recognising that I am getting caught up in patterns, and looking again.

But to actually see that no self is true, is only the work of a moment. All it takes is a moment of clear, honest looking at how things are actually happening in reality. If you really see that thoughts come from nothing, and you are not doing them, then that is you seeing that no self is true. If you really see that you are not doing any of the actions, and that they are all happening automatically, then that is you seeing that no self is true.

So keep looking at eveything throughout the day. Look at thoughts, look at feelings, look at actions. notice which thoughts trigger which feelings, what stimuli trigger what thoughts( eg a smell triggers a memory, or sight of a photograph brings thoughts of the person in the photo).

Report back tomorrow, or when you can. Its good to keep up the intensity, its really down to how much time you can spend looking. I am here to help point you to where you should look, but thats as much as I can do really.

[xae214d5]

I think it differs for different people, and how clearly they see it. For some people its like BAM! and a huge amount of their conditioning and patterns are blasted away. For me its a constant looking, getting caught up in patterns, recognising that I am getting caught up in patterns, and looking again.

But to actually see that no self is true, is only the work of a moment. All it takes is a moment of clear, honest looking at how things are actually happening in reality. If you really see that thoughts come from nothing, and you are not doing them, then that is you seeing that no self is true. If you really see that you are not doing any of the actions, and that they are all happening automatically, then that is you seeing that no self is true.

So keep looking at eveything throughout the day. Look at thoughts, look at feelings, look at actions. notice which thoughts trigger which feelings, what stimuli trigger what thoughts( eg a smell triggers a memory, or sight of a photograph brings thoughts of the person in the photo).

Report back tomorrow, or when you can. Its good to keep up the intensity, its really down to how much time you can spend looking. I am here to help point you to where you should look, but thats as much as I can do really.

I haven't experienced any significant changes so far, I guess I'll just have to keep doing the exercise. It's strange though, to think that everything happens automatically, even the typing of this text.

This line of thought is totally the opposite of what is taught in western magic - there's a well-known quote by Aleister Crowley, for example: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". I wonder if they are the two sides of the same coin, so to speak

I think I have some more work to do regarding thoughts - they often seem like the self when they are two or more levels removed from the physical senses. It's interesting though, that your method involves not just the sensations but thoughts and actions - I got the impression that it involved only the physical senses when I read Ruthless Truth.com, and some other posts here on Liberation Unleashed. "Literally just looking", etc.