How to overcome this I, me, thing and why we want to do this as the things happen as it should

[JonathanR]

Hi Balazs,

Even the 'now' is hard to find because as I said now then it turns to past immediately. It seems even now is just an idea.
The question is do we need to deal with past, now and future or we just can use them in the daily communication.

If there is no belief in the existence of these as real you are right. They just become a way of speaking.

Yes there are thoughts but are these actually 'my thoughts'?

Not really. If I would say then the 'my thoughts' is equal to the car, food, beer thought but until now the 'my thought' got more attention then the others or I can say that the 'my thought' was the king.

I may have asked you this but do you feel that 'you' ' create' your thoughts? Or would you say that thoughts simply appear?

Whatever is happening in thought, is that being sensed here and now?

Imagine a piece of fruit. Just close your eyes and imagine holding a piece of fruit. The way it looks and feels, it's colour and so on.

Now go and find a piece of fruit. Hold it and note the experience. How does this experience of sensing real fruit differ from the experience of the thought-fruit?

This is like the difference between what is real and what is imaginary. 'Self' is like the thought-fruit.

No, if I just look a meeting in the workplace then I know that 'my' body is there but 'my' thought on the beach for example.

:-). Yes.

Is it possible to see, hear or touch the story of Balazs that happens in thought?


Do you feel that experiencing many thoughts is a kind of problem? Did you hope to get rid of thoughts?


Thank you,


Jon

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

I may have asked you this but do you feel that 'you' ' create' your thoughts? Or would you say that thoughts simply appear?

'I' don't create thoughts, they are just appearing and disappearing. It is hard to find the source of them, even impossible. This reminds me when it was said that find the source of the inhaling after that you exhale. Now I can say that there is no source, the inhale just happening.
Maybe it is not necessary to be busy whit such a kind of thing. I just wanted to mention what comes up.

Whatever is happening in thought, is that being sensed here and now?

No.

Imagine a piece of fruit. Just close your eyes and imagine holding a piece of fruit. The way it looks and feels, it's color and so on.

Now go and find a piece of fruit. Hold it and note the experience. How does this experience of sensing real fruit differ from the experience of the thought-fruit?

The real fruit in my right hand is here and now. It has a shape, I can see, touch, smell, taste it. The thought-fruit in my left hand is not there. There was nothing, no physical object in the left hand.

Is it possible to see, hear or touch the story of Balazs that happens in thought?

No. It is just a well built up story like the thought-fruit or a virtual world which is played with the VR glasses. It is all about thoughts which are suggesting that the story of Balazs is real.

Do you feel that experiencing many thoughts is a kind of problem? Did you hope to get rid of thoughts?

Good question.A couple of weeks before I would have said that yes it is a problem and I want to stop them or I can direct my attention from thoughts to my center or to the present moment.
Now I say, that it is not a problem to have many or not so many thoughts. There is no problem with thoughts. They just come and go without any control. The 'hope to get rid of thoughts' is just another thought, belief, expectation.

Thank you.
Balazs

[JonathanR]

Hello Balazs,

A couple of weeks before I would have said that yes it is a problem and I want to stop them or I can direct my attention from thoughts to my center or to the present moment.
Now I say, that it is not a problem to have many or not so many thoughts. There is no problem with thoughts. They just come and go without any control. The 'hope to get rid of thoughts' is just another thought, belief, expectation.

Excellent.

When you started this thread you said:

To realize that there is no self with experience or direct looking and not only have a knowing or understanding. And somehow I got tired almost with everything and I just want to finish this seeking, wanting.

Now that thoughts have ceased to be the problem that they seemed to be do you feel that this is the end of seeking?.

Has there been any noticeable change in mood or feeling over the past two weeks? It doesn't matter if the answer is 'yes' or 'no' but let me know?


Thank you,

Jon

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

Now that thoughts have ceased to be the problem that they seemed to be do you feel that this is the end of seeking?

I am sitting here and watching what comes up and almost nothing. Maybe the seeking stopped or not, I cannot see it clearly at this moment.Maybe it is less important.

Has there been any noticeable change in mood or feeling over the past two weeks? It doesn't matter if the answer is 'yes' or 'no' but let me know?

Yes, there is some change. There is more acceptance to what is happening here and now. There is less noisy vibrating, there is more calmness at these days.
And your next questions came up during the days sometimes: 'Since no 'I' is found, what notices that there is no self?'

It is funny that somehow I am waiting for your replay and there is also some curiosity about your answer and I never thought that answering one post will take from half to one hour. :)
This kind of dialog asks real attention instead of just answering from memories or learned things.

Thank you.
Balazs

[JonathanR]

Hi Balazs

I am sitting here and watching what comes up and almost nothing. Maybe the seeking stopped or not, I cannot see it clearly at this moment.Maybe it is less important.

Okay :-)

Yes, there is some change. There is more acceptance to what is happening here and now. There is less noisy vibrating, there is more calmness at these days.

Good. I'm very pleased.

And your next questions came up during the days sometimes: 'Since no 'I' is found, what notices that there is no self?'

Ah yes. That's an interesting one :-)

Yes, these conversations are much more about investigating actual experience than about remembered or learned information.

Here are a few questions for you:

1. Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

2. Or a self that is 'the doer', or can control what happens?

3. Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

4. Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

5. Can "the body" be found to be any more than label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

6. Can the five body senses be found to be experienced or caused by this ‘self’, rather than simply being unexplainable happenings?

7. Can a self be found ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

8. Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

9. Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?


Thank you,


Jon

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

I just gave some short answer for most of your question. If you want to expand some of them, please let me know.

1. Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

No.

2. Or a self that is 'the doer', or can control what happens?

No.

3. Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

No.

4. Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

No.

5. Can "the body" be found to be any more than label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

No.

6. Can the five body senses be found to be experienced or caused by this ‘self’, rather than simply being unexplainable happenings?

No.

7. Can a self be found ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No.

8. Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

No.

9. Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

I don't know. :) There is no reason to say a no either yes. The state is like when the sun comes up. It is getting lighter and lighter, you try to catch the moment when the sun comes up and once you realized the sun is already up and you missed that moment or the process, you just see the final state which is just a new beginning. :)

I will sit with these questions and with the liked one tonight and see what happens.

Thank you.
Balazs

[JonathanR]

Hi Balazs,

Thanks for your post and your straightforward answers. I will wait for your next post. Feel free to answer in whatever way occurs.

best regards,

Jon

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

It seems that there is still some expectation about your questions. If the answer is almost No for all of them then what about the last one. The answer should be clear which is No.
And it seems also then there is still waiting for some happening it doesn't matter small or big; after that I can say a clear No for the last question.

There is a too much focus on this 'click' thought like creating a two separate world, one is until the click and one is after the click.

I know it is not important and every situation is different but may I ask you how or what happened where you were able to answer the last question clearly and undoubtedly.

Thank you.
Balazs

[JonathanR]

Hi Balazs,

It seems that there is still some expectation about your questions. If the answer is almost No for all of them then what about the last one. The answer should be clear which is No.
And it seems also then there is still waiting for some happening it doesn't matter small or big; after that I can say a clear No for the last question.

There is a too much focus on this 'click' thought like creating a two separate world, one is until the click and one is after the click.

These are very fair points. Until there isn't doubt, doubts remain.

But 'before' and 'after' a click belongs to a linear view of time. And there is an assumption of a 'me' that exists before and after.

How about if there is no 'me' before or after?

I know it is not important and every situation is different but may I ask you how or what happened where you were able to answer the last question clearly and undoubtedly.

Yes, sure. However this account may not apply to anyone else.

My guide asked me 'what is it that sees the words on the screen, is it eyes that do the seeing'? I thought about this and answered that it must be the brain that does the seeing (this was received wisdom of course). My guide asked me if there was really an experience of 'a brain seeing'. Of course I had to answer no. Then suddenly it was clear that only the experience of seeing alone can be found, not even 'eyes seeing' and not a 'self seeing'.

Later he asked me if it is possible to prevent a thought from appearing, including the thought 'i'. There was a moment in which 'I' was seen as an inevitable appearance, that it is neither 'my' creation nor 'my' responsibility. It just appears as the content of thought. From then on there was no need to regard thoughts as 'mine' or 'me'.


regards,

Jon

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

Thank you for sharing the story.

These are very fair points. Until there isn't doubt, doubts remain.

But 'before' and 'after' a click belongs to a linear view of time. And there is an assumption of a 'me' that exists before and after.

Maybe, there is a fear at this point or was a couple of weeks before. The fear is/was about what happen after seeing through the 'no self' thing. What will happen with 'my life'? What will or won't change? This is what 'I' really want.

This fear is just another thought, fear from the future which is another thought. It seems thought have a fear from each other, which is funny, especially if we add the 'I' element which is just one more thought. :)

How about if there is no 'me' before or after?

Then the things just happen.

Regards,
Balazs

[JonathanR]

Hi Balazs,

Maybe, there is a fear at this point or was a couple of weeks before. The fear is/was about what happen after seeing through the 'no self' thing. What will happen with 'my life'? What will or won't change? This is what 'I' really want.

This fear is just another thought, fear from the future which is another thought. It seems thought have a fear from each other, which is funny, especially if we add the 'I' element which is just one more thought. :)

It is really good to mention the fear. It is important to acknowledge anything like this. Some fear is very common and your questions are very fair.

What will happen with 'your' life? What will or won't change?

In many ways nothing at all will change. There will still be all the things that happen right now. Nobody is being destroyed or 'dying'. There can often be a fear feeling of 'what the hell will happen...'. That is simply a loyal self-preservation instinct attempting to protect something that is somehow felt to be threatened.

Though it may sound silly it is a good idea to actually thank the fear. It has been doing a great and loyal job of protecting all these years. But now it can relax. It can rest. Becasue there never even was a 'self' that 'needed protection'; only the assumption of one.

Does this help?

If not, allow any fear to be felt. Notice how it feels as a sensation.

Let me know how you get on.

Regards,

Jon

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

It is really good to mention the fear. It is important to acknowledge anything like this. Some fear is very common and your questions are very fair.

What will happen with 'your' life? What will or won't change?

In many ways nothing at all will change. There will still be all the things that happen right now. Nobody is being destroyed or 'dying'. There can often be a fear feeling of 'what the hell will happen...'. That is simply a loyal self-preservation instinct attempting to protect something that is somehow felt to be threatened.

Though it may sound silly it is a good idea to actually thank the fear. It has been doing a great and loyal job of protecting all these years. But now it can relax. It can rest. Becasue there never even was a 'self' that 'needed protection'; only the assumption of one.

Does this help?

Yes, it helps absolutely. It seems there is nothing to do with this now. It feels that something was there in the room but in some dark place, but now it gets light and it brings easiness.

There is one more topic or thought which is just hiding itselfs. This is about the success of this process. There is an expectation that such a process just could happen personally or this was heard or read in books that you need to go some place and spend some time with somebody who can guide you.

This is also just an assumption that 'I' need to achieve something through this process.

Thank you.
Balazs

[JonathanR]

Hi Balazs,

Yes, it helps absolutely. It seems there is nothing to do with this now. It feels that something was there in the room but in some dark place, but now it gets light and it brings easiness.

Great. I'm glad :-)

There is one more topic or thought which is just hiding itselfs. This is about the success of this process. There is an expectation that such a process just could happen personally or this was heard or read in books that you need to go some place and spend some time with somebody who can guide you.

An online forum like LU Gate is still a very new development. Perhaps in the past the only way to receive help to see no self was from one person? But the product is the same (so to speak). It always has been. There has never been a personal, separate 'self'.

Pointing to no self can still be done face-to-face. I have a friend who prefers to assist people in this way. But it is perfectly possible to succeed in seeing no self during a conversation here at LU Forum.

Do you see the difference between a thought that appears and its content? The thought is real but the content is not. Doesn't 'I' only ever appear as the content of a thought?

This is also just an assumption that 'I' need to achieve something through this process.

Yes it is. It's good to see through this too.

regards,

Jon

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

Thank you for the explanation of this process.

Do you see the difference between a thought that appears and its content? The thought is real but the content is not. Doesn't 'I' only ever appear as the content of a thought?

If I am sitting here and thinking what to write and thinking for the pink elephant then the thought is real and the content, the pink elephant is not.
If I plan to wake up tomorrow morning at 6 then there is a thought about planning and the 'I', the time and even the activity are just a content.

I will stop here for today. I need to take a rest.

Regards,
Balazs

[JonathanR]

Hi Balazs,

Thanks for your reply.

Do our last few posts address any doubts that you may have about this guiding process and 'no self'? It is important that we should address these now so do feel free to voice any lingering expectations or doubts.

After this I have a few questions for you.

Regards,

Jon